Equipment for electronics lab

Electronics
#14

@SRichardson3D That would be great to have the meter shared between the two committees. I started the threads hoping to create enough interest. Can you and the electronics chair chime in on the discussion? I’ll also be at Woodshop 101 if anyone wants to discuss it in person.

My interest is having the ability to order cheap high power LEDs and then have the ability to test and send back if they are not what they claim to be. Or, be able to purchase the cheap LEDs and have peace of mind that we truly received what we paid for.

#15

So we have some options. So I read the original question to be what are sorts of things that would be helpful in equipping electronics lab. At present, I don’t have projects requiring RF equipment or logic analyzer. I could see a need happening in the future, and maybe there are others who do have present need. I’m happy to assist with RF equipmenting, as it just seems like any good electronics lab should have some options available when you need them.

Here is another thought: What about EMI? In order to sell anything electronic, you must be able to pass EMI testing. I would think that a measurement wand connected to instrument capable of measuring radiated noise across frequency and low emissions barrier may be a good idea for anyone who wants to quickly get some circuit to market. Otherwise, you have to pay for such testing, and pay to test again when you are about acceptable radiation levels, and yet again until its fixed. Why not be able to root these issues out right here at makerspace?

Oh and one last thought: What about shock testing? …the capability of putting controlled electric shock to your completed unit to make sure that it does not fail due to static or other usual stresses a customer may place on your product. For this we would need a wand and controlled capacitive discharge system. Might even be possible to make a jig for this, and useful for anyone trying to take something electronic to market.

#16

Low end is relative. 4 channel with protocol decodes is pretty useful.

Mobile Electronics Repair / Maintenance / Fabrication Cart proposal
#17

I went down to techshop to see what they have been doing they have 4-5 of these.

National Instruments Virtual Bench
http://www.ni.com/virtualbench/

It’s pretty Sweet!
it’s a Software Defined

Mixed-Signal Oscilloscope
Bandwidth 100 MHz
Channels 2 analog, 34 digital
Sampling Rate 1 GS/s (single channel), 500 MS/s/ch (dual channel)
Waveform Measurements cursors, 22 automatic measurements
Waveform Math add, subtract, multiply, FFT
Record Length 1 million samples

Function Generator
Max Frequency 20 MHz (sine), 5 MHz (square)
Channels 1
Waveform Types sine, square, ramp, triangle, DC

Digital Mulitimeter
Resolution 5 ½ digits
Measurement Functions VDC, VAC, IDC, IAC, continuity, resistance, diode
Max Voltage 300 V max input voltage
Max Current 10 A max input current
Basic Accuracy up to 0.015% VDC
Programmable DC Power Supply
Channels 3
Voltage/Current (Ch1) 0 to +6 V/0 to 1 A
Voltage/Current (Ch2) 0 to +25 V/0 to 0.5 A
Voltage/Current (Ch3) 0 to -25 V/0 to 0.5 A

Digital I/O
Channels 8 (input or output)
Logic Level 5 V compatible LVTTL input, 3.3 V LVTTL output

#18

Robert, does that mean you’re giving us $2k to buy it?

#19

$400 for 1054Z
$259 for signal gen
$150 for Salae logic16
$200 for bench power supply

So for about $1000, I can replicate and exceed that things specs.

Electronics is better than ever, can we improve it?
#20

But can it record all the outputs into one unified view?
Also what is the learning curve?

They tell me I can run Voltage directly into the Digital In Pins or the Function Generator and it just throws an error and does not kill itself.

That is pretty cool

#21

National Instruments seems to be getting behind the Maker Movement so I am confident I can get it cheaper than MSRP.

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#22

Having everything rolled into one instrument makes it so that only one person can use all of those instruments at one time. It really looks like it was intended for an educational setting. While I understand that there is a large emphesis on education, we would be better served by getting stand alone tools that each do one thing and do it well.

#23

Guys, the NI tools are industry standard. IMO NI’s approach of ‘virtual instrumentation’ is a superior approach.

Virtual Instrumentation is the idea that you don’t need a computer in each instrument–you just need one computer which would be a PC, and all the instruments hooked into it. So not only can you use NI toolset to do the actual instrument acquisition and control (even programmatically), but now the data is in the PC…a very convenient place for it to be since you may need to operate upon it or log the data in, say, database or text files.

The real power of NI toolset is the software, hence NI’s old slogan,‘the software is the instrument’. What I think makes sense for makerspace is windows PC, old school box with PCI slots, and a copy of LabVIEW running upon it. You see, LabVIEW is the flagship data acquisition software product that allows users to easily acquire data from instruments and such, and perform whatever operations upon it that they so desire. Its a graphical programming language, and all the big players in the industry are using it, which is why I said it is industry standard.

With the PC and LabVIEW instrumentation setup, you can hook the PC up to just about any instrument. Most lab instruments have GPIB or USB or ethernet on them and there is already a LabVIEW driver available for free out there. These drivers will allow you to programmatically initiate measurement, calibration, settings operations on the device, and move acquired data into PC, even display on screen with dials, graphs, charts, 3D plots, excel dumps, SQL database dumps, really anything you can think of to do with the data. So now you can simply use the setup to take measurements -OR- you can set up complex measurement and control systems where you use the PC to automate such measurements between many devices.

I’m gonna have to force myself not to write a book here, and my little post does not do the topic justice, but the primary takeaway is that mentioned ‘data aquisition devices’ in my first post are exactly what virtual bench is. But we are not limited to just NI data acquisision devices. Traditional instrumentation ALSO can function as data acquisition devices. I think the Tek scope in the lab has GPIB interface. Most digital power supplies have some system for programmatic control for cycling voltages, current limits and such.

You can get cheap ($99) usb cards to get a bunch of general purpose DIO lines. Many vendors sell ‘analog input’ and ‘analog output’ and ‘counter timer’ and ‘digital I/O’ hybrid devices for not very much. All you need to really use all this stuff is a PC running LabVIEW (and maybe a GPIB interface for lab instruments). I think the PC with LabVIEW is where to start with something like this. Then it will become obvious that we need to ensure programmatic control capability on future electronic equipment acquisitions, which is not at all hard to do these days.

#24

With much respect to the commenters @Robert_Davidson, @Carpman, @Clayton this is meant as a comical interjection with a serious intent. @schrodinger123 have you been to the space? :wink:

We cannot get the members to keep the benches clean or replace the toilet paper in the bathrooms.

This is a great piece of gear and we should have it on our radar but we do need some basics covered first. Keep in mind that very few members need this level of equipment when we could use many more of basic tools.

As Robert was saying, if we could get a great deal and it is a limited offer then we should pursue it. Otherwise DMS is better served with multiples of good basic gear.

#25

While automating bench cleaning and toilet paper replacement may not be well suited for a virtual instrumentation system, it for sure could be done that way. I’ll check the patent server for ‘method and apparatus for toilet paper dispensing and roll replacement’.

In my previous post, I think I may have left folks feeling like I was suggesting an expensive approach. Not at all, I’m advocating the cheap approach to address the possible need for a virtual bench system.

Here is what my approach entails:

  1. old box style windows 7 or later pc with pci slots and 100 or so gig free hd space. (cost: cheap for makerspace, yes?)
  2. LabVIEW (any students at makerspace who can do free install for educational purposes?)
  3. PCI gpib card. (Saw a good one on ebay for $160, saw some questionable ones <$50)
  4. Now we can hook existing stuff to PC, and to add data acquisition capabilities, we could scrounge for USB/GPIB/PCI cards on internet as need arises (various costs, but most things can be found cheap)

So now, to add data acquisition capability, according to my calculations, looks like one computer and $160. Now we have a ‘virtual bench’ of our own.

#26

FYI for people that have no clue what we are talking about here is what the software looks like.

And to add to Lampys point (As an Amateur Doing basic power supply and Soldering)

I would be much more comfortable with this type of equipment for the simple fact I know I can’t break it and I know what it’s doing.

A lot of you guys are way more advanced than I could ever want to be but I will say from an amateur perspective the cool thing about this is it’s extremely clean there are not wires everywhere and things that have to be hooked up etc.

it’s all Slotted cables and extremely clean.

Which is at the heart of the issue on the room people just don’t put things back so my intention is to only simplify not make things more complex.

In the software you just change the values and it outputs the power you need as well as there are colored LED’s on the machine which tell you what port to use.

#27

Robert, thanks for the shot. I think it helps a lot for folks to be able to see what exactly we are talking about when we say ‘virtual bench’ or virtual instrumentation.

The interface you see in the shot looks to me like a LabVIEW interface, but it could have been implemented in NI’s CVI (c compiler). I can probably even get the code for that very interface, and yes, we could certainly get CVI. Not only could you use this interface for the virtual bench hardware, but you could use same to autoconfigure and acquire from, say, the Tek scope or even any other scope (using GPIB on back of scope… look at it, its there. Probably also one on the little digital scope. If not, its USB or RS-232 and yes we can use those ports to control instrumentation)

But we can do oh so much more than that. There are options of literally thousands of similar interfaces so you can choose the one that best suits your purpose. But it does not end there… hundreds and thousands of interfaces are free in public domain for ANY electronic instrument choice. AND, you can even configure your own interface. These are the options that you get with a PC loaded with NI software tools.

So for those who want to use a virtual instrumentation type system, a person skilled with said products could set up interfaces for any/all lab equipment/data acquisition systems (like the virtual bench hardware setup) and put icons on desktop for each instrument. All that is required is that the NI tools are installed on the computer in question, and educational licenses are free.

I would love to have access to a virtual bench hardware unit. But what I am proposing is an emphasis on the software, since ‘the software is the instrument’. The solution of using machine with applicable NI toolset and some interface equipment can provide this very interface AND opens the door to an infinite set of solutions for ANY instrument measurement or automation need that we can’t even forsee today.

#28

There are basically three threads plus my starter thread discussing the same thing. Should we shut them down and start a single thread?

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/mobile-electronics-repair-maintenance-fabrication-cart-proposal/736

#29

These other threads don’t all completely overlap. The Cart thread is specifically for a mobile electronics cart, to be shared between departments. It has nothing directly to do with improving any one department’s equipment.

I am taking ideas away from these threads. For example, I’m wondering about implementing NI’s virtual electronics lab on the cart? Maybe Automotive would be able to use that to analyze automotive electronics? Maybe the radio corner could use this equipment in their work, too?

#30

Sorry for chiming in so much, but I really like the virtual instrumentation on a cart approach. The reason is that I saw endless application for NI software toolsets for the projects being implemented at makerspace. Yes, I am a new addition to makerspace, but I have fallen in love with the place and I see infinite possibility and boundless talent and enthusiasm.

For the virtual instrumentation on a cart, I saw some neat projects at makerspace that I thought were very interesting to get programmatic control over using NI toolset:

*Oculus rift and associated hardware/software. I found an existing driver/API for Emotive Epoc (that crazy brain sensor thing that sits on your head looking like its downloading your brain’s contents to the CIA). And for the rift, I can get control of most windows interfaces through special software hooks, so I can basically control their interface programatically and bring acquired oculus data into LabVIEW where we can operate on it/edit it/control it/do whatever to it. Cool application for ‘cart’ concept, no?

*3D printer creation/implementation. If you want to get past the difficulties of implementing all the hardware control, I can pick existing/debugged/tested pieces of code, assemble them together and provide interface for a 3d printing device. Don’t know what the status of this project is, or if its done already, but the NI toolset would speed development by a huge time savings factor in that we dont have to make everything from scratch… just sow pre-developed drivers together at a high level should get it done. (Oh, then debug).

*Robotics development. NI partnered with Lego to create Mindstorms set (EV3 and NXT). They provided modified version of LabVIEW for kids as the programming environment. Yes you can also program the controllers with LabVIEW. In addition to the Lego stuff, which is probably more fun for big kids than the little ones, you can use the rapid develpment programming environment to target FPGA and microcontroller platforms that you can put on larger robots. And you can control them wirelessly with bluetooth or wifi. And there are image processing, character recognition, pattern matching, and artificial intelligence code modules available that are already developed. …and…and…and… i could wear my keyboard out with the possibilites…

*Pinball. Wouldn’t it be neat to have the computer play pinball? yup… the cart helps here too.

*Laser/LED/Optics- There are cheap lasers that can be controlled via these software tools. There are inexpensive optic sensors that can take in light and break it into spectrum in real time and possibly even sense polarization. Programmatic control over a setup like this allows for some very cool possibilities.

*metalwork-some metalwork machines are actually implemented with NI toolset. Don’t know about the ones you have because I’m not a metal guy and I haven’t used them. But suppose that you have some automated tools that really have to be used together to get a cool result. We could tap in with the toolset and make that possible. We could set up X Y and rotational table with drilling device or whatever is required to cut into metal and make our own milling machine. The possibilies are limited only by imagination

*woodworking-same as above

I could keep going, but I think you get the idea.

So my thoughts are that a cart would be cool. When you get to a project where you need a system in one place for a long time or forever, post a PC in that spot. I think, in general, getting an NI toolset in place at Makerspace and applied to the appropriate projects will GREATLY enhance capabilities and add many,many more new ones.

#31

I think it’s fine that you make a lot of contributions to the discussion, especially as your comments on virtual instrumentation are interesting to me. I know that some people don’t like a lot of traffic on the site, and I’ve been warned that if I post too much, people might start avoiding my posts, but I don’t understand that mindset.

I’m excited about the possibilities of Labview. I would like to see more discussion of it on the existing thread about the proposed cart. Mobile Electronics Repair / Maintenance / Fabrication Cart proposal

#33

Thank you for the support, gentlemen.

So I am a newcomer to the space, but I see enormous budding potential, and I would like to use my skill set to advance the efforts here. I have about 15 years experience implementing computer automation/lab automation/assembly line automation/robotics automation etc. etc. using NI products and I am former employee of NI. I can assist whomever needs it in finding the best path forward for automating their project/design/lab, etc. I’d really prefer to proliferate the knowledge to the members of the space, place the project on a good trajectory toward automation success, and let members learn to control their own automation designs, along with appropriate support as needed.

Come to think, NI may offer some free software and additional support for non-profit organizations to enhance the entire experience. They may even offer some free hardware, doesn’t hurt to ask.

So here comes my plug: If you have a project you are working on that you think could be enhanced via computerized automation, I would like to help you. Don’t hesitate to contact me.

And if you are confused by how we started with the topic of virtual bench and wound up at computerized automation, well let me explain. Virtual bench software is nothing more than computerized automation of laboratory measurment and control hardware. In other words configuration and measurment using laboratory hardware falls under the heading of computerized automation and control. I just began using the heading of computerized automation because it is more general and can apply across the board to many, many projects at makerspace which is my true aim. Hence the recommendation for the general purpose NI software that can run virtual bench software AND do so many other things around the space.

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#34

James I would like to take you up on your offer,

If you don’t mind could you look into the cost of licensing of NI Labview and the cost NI VirtualBench for DMS.

Feel Free to PM me at [email protected] if you have any Questions on DMS and or you need the EIN etc.

But as far as pricing feel free to post here. I was very impressed with the usability of the NI Framework from a Amateurs perspective.