Because the Space was discussing signs that would re-criminalize it (and potentially make the site of any pistol – even a disassembled receiver – a crime too.)
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Ok, so again, I both own guns and know how to use them. So, that’s not it.
Are there any rules in these places on when and where you can have your gun out? Loaded? Or are there no rules whatsoever? I suspect not.
I earlier acknowledged the need for a written rule and even offered a possible solution so I’d appreciate if you don’t confuse me with the “no rules whatsoever” crowd. Of course there are rules in shooting ranges and public ranges but it is, by and large, NOT the written rules that keep people safe. People who wish to behave in an unsafe manner will always do so in spite of the rules.
DMS does not currently have a rule but there are no issues with people having their gun out or loaded. You’ve repeatedly posted scenarios in this thread that have never happened at DMS. People have explained to you already that long before the Texas open carry law was on the radar, anyone could have walked into the space with a loaded gun out in the open.
As I have already said, anyone absent-minded enough to carelessly walk around the space with a loaded gun in the manner you seem to be anticipating would be too absent-minded to know that a rule exists.
I don’t know what sort of gun owners you’ve been exposed to, but it sounds like you expect the worst from people.
It may just be, Daniel, that you’re doomed to be one of the folks in this discussion who will not be satisfied with the wording of the rule. On the plus side, your fears will never be realized so that’s a win for all of us.
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No, I haven’t forgotten that. There seem to be three voices I hear in this thread, or three peaks of a spectrum…
- Please keep your guns put away and out of sight
- You can open carry but abiding by obvious safety guidelines is a given
- NO RULES!!!
It’s not necessarily the guns owners I have known that make my imagination run wild. It’s, as Rodney termed them, the “WTF” members… that tiny minority of members with little sense and a penchant for pushing the rules.
About 95% of the words I’ve written in this thread are directed at group #3 (NO RULES!!!), while mindful of the “WTF” members.
The big question is: what does constitute responsible gun handling in a semi-public place like DMS? If we can’t agree on what that is, how is any member going to know that what they’re doing is just fine, not ok, likely to get them talked to, or have a membership revoked? Many activities (such as long gun open carry) are perfectly legal (and not requiring a CHL!). But what about that makes it not ok in the Makerspace? Or is the contention that this should be no problem at all?
Actually the state has a number of rules, and DMS may pass one or two additional. They may even be worded so as to not create any additional legal problems for those of us who carry, such as the last poll which is using a rule that Allen suggested.
That said, part of your problem is that you feel open carry is having the gun ‘out’ and that isnt consistent with the law. If it is holstered it isnt ‘out’-- and lets not go back to the fears about rifles. Hasnt been an issue for the years it has been possible, not likely to be now.
And your stance seems pretty straightforward, if you cant see the gun your happy. I suspect that you will remain happy even after Jan 1st most of the time. But you may not, anymore then you will when you go out anywhere in Texas in public.
Responsible gun handling in a place like DMS: if you have it out of a holster or case, it should be unloaded. Do not point it at anyone. Try not to walk around with it unholstered or uncased in the hallways and such.
People are already doing that out of common sense without any sort of written rule. You seem to think that the “WTF members” would suddenly become less “WTF” if a rule was written down. I contend that the “WTF” members are going to “WTF” regardless of any written rule and it is up to us to police them IF that behavior ever occurs (which I still stand by my assertion that it never will).
The proposed rule, as written, will cover DMS and all scenarios can be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. Attempting to predict what the “WTF members” might do and devising rules to cover that behavior is a fool’s errand.
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Well it seems everyone is optimistic about the outcome of all of this, its also a fools errand not to voice all scenarios, pros and cons.
You could say the same thing about CHL holders, who’s to say they wont make a mistake, or me for that matter, as i’m going for my CHL next month.
I would think you would voice and talk about this stuff so all is surfaced. If we all just went along with this is great, awesome, nobody will F-up, its all good, can’t blame nobody but ourselves for not thoroughly talking about it. Read through these forums, people complain about the tinyest of things, yet we want to downplay something that could cause someone to lose their life.
No you can’t predict your right, but voicing a valid concern is not foolish.
I mean if everyone feels this will work out, i’m game, but i know one thing i’m not stepping up to nobody with a pistol, playing truant officer cause of their ignorance. If we want to open up the playing field and add on more danger to an already somewhat dangerous facility (machines etc). Then okie dokie.
Nor did I say it was. “Fool’s errand” is simply an impossible task.
Agreed…
If you aren’t willing to ‘step up’ in a case where someone is doing something that you think is a problem, how do you expect a new DMS rule to work? We don’t have employees, so our rules are enforced by our members.
Even if the police are called, they will only do something if the act is illegal. They will not arbitrate between two members, neither of which are ‘official representatives’ of the corporation, to enforce our internal rules. We already expect our board and especially committee chairs (who are the only ‘official representatives of the corporation’) to work as janitors cleaning up after our members, do they need to serve as police as well?
This is especially applicable to firearms, but also applies to many of the other tools we have at the space. Violations of safe behaviors can have immediate bad consequences. As such any member who witnesses them has an obligation to help stop dangerous behaviour.
I’m a little annoyed that you’re assuming everyone who is against open carry is not a gun owner.
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Well there are a million other areas i can help out in rather that telling someone to be responsible with their weapon. AFAIK most folks here want to help people learn new things and keep folks from harming themselves on the machinery that we do have. I just choose not to add correcting horseplay with firearms to my arsenal.
I mean I may be wrong, but is the expectation that if you get what you want out of this, you expect everyone to help out and police it? I mean your asking folks to walk up on something they would normally walk away from…
I think you misunderstood my post. My point is how would you expect a new ‘rule’ at the space to work, if not by some member talking to the person in question. In my opinion the people who feel there is a problem are the ones who should be doing the talking. That really is the only way a membership based organization such as ours can function. We don’t have employees whom we can rely on to do our communication for us.
I agree with you to an extent, but why would a person that didnt want it to begin with go and be the guinea pig?
That is not a relevant argument. Many things are legal. Many fewer things are appropriate.
If you are referring to the person not wanting firearms at the space by the creation of rules, my answer is how do they expect those rules to be applied and enforced? I contend that any such rules would be like all of our current rules, our members, are expected to enforce them. I would also say, that in most such potential issues the simple conversation could resolve the concern.
For instance, in one of your examples above you mentioned how concerned you would be if someone had a loaded gun on the table next to them. I contend that it is quite difficult to ascertain if a gun is loaded by simple remote observation. So by simply talking to the person you might discover that they are doing some locksmithing at the space and what you perceived to be a ‘loaded’ weapon was simple one that they had just assembled to test the fit, and that it had no ammunition in it at all.
Sorry to disagree, but it is extremely relevant. I believe that your claim that a holstered weapon that isn’t covered by a thin piece of cloth to be ‘out’ is mistaken. While I can understand and sympathize with your discomfort in such situations, it is clear that you have no intent to try and understand the opposing view.
BTW, there are for more things that are made illegal that many of us consider entirely appropriate. To clarify, I suggest a perusal of the term ‘blue laws’.
Just to make sure we are clear, im not against firearms at the space, im opposed to open carry only.
Correct, my scenario was a bit absurd i guess. Another member stated that open carry doesnt imply you take your weapon off and lay it on a table, so i understand that point now.
Working on your gun at the space is not a problem to me, but if your in the pottery section and its out, that would seem kinda odd, i dunno man, i just hope everyone does as you say and acts responsibly.
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Jesus. I am done here. Not only are you misrepresenting what I’ve said, you’re taking a hard line and claiming that everyone else is persecuting your rights. Or rather, any rules would be an opportunity for persecution.
Many guns are tools that are used for hunting, sport…
Carried weapons are a statement of interpersonal threat. I don’t think you need them to fend off bears within the city limits… so that only leaves squirrels and people to shoot at.
That is literally what a personal carry is. Power in your hand, against other people. Keep it put away. It’s crass and offensive to display your power in public.
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No, I don’t believe I am. I made great pains to ‘talk’ with you above to get an understanding of your position. You have stated your fine if the holstered hand gun is concealed, but not if you can see it. The only difference is a thin piece of cloth. Which is applicable to the discussion of your ‘calculus of safety’
Now it is you who are misrepresenting what I have written.
Really, I believe you stated above that there only purpose is to kill…
No, that is your belief. People carry as a means of protection. You don’t threaten criminals, you simply seek to defend yourself when they attack you. The idea that preparation for self-defence is an attack or threat is ludicrous.
That you will not even consider that someone may have a good reason to wish to carry openly, such as Andrew outlined above, is the crux of the problem people have with accepting your concerns.
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