You do know that for the last 20 years, at any place of business without a 30.06 or 51% sign, or more recently, any municipal building that is not a courtroom, or posted council meeting, you are already in the company of random members of the public who are legally carrying? And come the first, any of those licensed members of the public can open carry any place that does not post 30.07? What suddenly makes this same group of people more dangerous on January 1?
Also, I would suggest that members of the maker space have a lot more in common with each other than the random members of the public, and generally far better better behave around each other.
Given that, perhaps California or one of the other states with restricted gun laws. If you go out in public in Texas then you are in frequent contact with armed people you don’t know.
You are in California, as well. You just have the assurance of knowing that they are all criminals and none of them are law-abiding.
It is pretty obvious that most of the gun proponents in this thread have zero regard for anyone else’s calculus of safety.
THIS DOES NOT SIT WELL WITH ME, AND IT SHOULDN’T SIT WELL WITH ANYONE ELSE.
My post above was only half-serious, as an example of the opposite logic of “a criminal might try something”. Er, rather, it’s the same logic, it’s just the opposite position. That many of you cannot even acknowledge that having a firearm may constitute some kind of safety tradeoff is disconcerting and illogical. People who make these arguments, then tell me they’re going to carry, everybody else be damned…
What am I supposed to think about you? Really? How can I not be at least a little bit afraid of your ability to make sound decisions?
I have not seriously suggested anywhere that no one should be able to concealed carry. But here we are, many of you arguing that your rights to carry anywhere and everywhere have no limits.
When people take this hard-line stance, am I supposed to think I might not find you carrying your AR-15 into the Taco Bell? Starbucks? Makerspace?
Gentlemen, it is your attitude that scares me more than your guns.
You are claiming to want a ‘safety’ that you can’t have at most public spaces in Texas. You shop for groceries, clothes, etc. That stranger standing next to you may be armed. So yes, if you want to feel safe from being near an armed stranger, you are stuck essentially in your home or leaving Texas for a state with more restrictive gun laws.
That is not a ‘gun nuts’ opinion, but simply a fact. It also doesn’t change regardless of what rules DMS institute.
Do you have a point beyond seeing someone besides yourself with a gun makes you uncomfortable?
You claim your fine with people carrying a holstered gun under their clothes, yet seem to be saying that when that holster is on the outside of their clothing you are now in danger.
If this new law was truly intended to keep CCL holders from being unfairly prosecuted for a brief or accidental reveal of their weapon, why are we having this discussion?
People suddenly feel the need to sling it around their belt? Why? What about that makes you safer than keeping your gun hidden away where it belongs? Or is it necessary to intimidate people for your safety?
What makes you less safe when the gun is shielded from you by a piece of fabric?
If it is simply that it makes you uncomfortable, then fine. In fact, I would say that open carry is impolite because it makes many people uncomfortable. The difference is I don’t believe I (or anyone else) has the right to force someone to not do something simply because it makes them uncomfortable. As I mentioned many things make many people uncomfortable.
Having the gun covered by fabric may or may not make @DanielHooper safer but there is evidence it will make you, the person carrying the weapon, safer.
I mentioned this in the board meeting. Earlier this month I spent a week in crutches after I sprained my foot. Normally, I conceal carry everywhere. I was unable to carry while on crutches, as the holsters I tried either cut into me or my jacket/shirt rode up and exposed the holster.
Open Carry would have allowed me to continue carrying my gun, at a time when I was least able to defend myself. For people with longer term or permanent handicaps, open carry might be their only way to reliably carry.
The issue stems from the fact that some people think having guns around presents a safety issue. That’s simply not true or gun stores and public shooting ranges would be blood baths.
By and large, gun owners are excessively cautious because we have no delusions about the lethality of our tools.
Let’s not disguise the issue as something it’s not. Let’s call it what it is:** an agreement to avoid having firearms out where people who are uncomfortable with firearms might see them.**
All this arguing back and forth about what’s safe/not safe is irrelevant to the discussion because DMS is full of unsafe tools* if someone uses them improperly.* Your assertion that gun owners are unable to handle firearms safely is frankly a bit insulting.
If I were to decide, without any precedent, that you are not cautious or intelligent enough to use any dangerous tool at DMS, how would that make you feel?
Some are some aren’t, similar to the machines, some are great with them some need to just leave them alone. However there is no rule to keep that small percentage of WTF users away from the machines and or handle themselves appropriately with holstered guns open or concealed. Yes there are alot of what-if’s, and your right there’s no fool proof mechanism to cover all bases.
I think the real fear amongst those against it, look at ok you open it up the responsible members, what is the WTF member gonna do. It’s the small percentage group thats gonna keep people on edge, the same group everyone looks out for in all other areas of the space, when you sit and watch them and are like what are you thinking as they are about lop a finger off etc…
Alot of it too is we all don’t know one another, so those that carry are like I dont know these people, i’m not trusting anyone. I know if i knew all of those who wanted to open carry talked to them etc, then i wouldnt think twice about seeing a pistol around their waist. It’s trully a comfort level based on what type of interaction you have with people.
So we are talking about random gun sightings and its just human nature to assess what it is your seeing and how to deal with it. Has anyone been around friends that have guns, and instictively at one point and time say hey put that thing away…Guns are scarey no way around it, they portray death, and most people fear death.
Lets be honest we get a new member join, nobody knows him, and day 1 walks in strapped, doesnt speak to anyone just keeps to himself. Even those that do carry, would you not have the lease bit concern until you actually interacted with the guy?
So this will be a learning and acceptance thing for all of us.
The opinions on this issue vary as much as the personalities at DMS. There is nothing wrong with that but it simply means that we could go back and forth all day in this thread without any actual resolution.
I believe that the proposed wording for the rule is adequate and the rest will be decided by self-policing and case-by-case determinations.
Actually DMS already has a rule for dealing with people who act poorly, use machines unsafely, etc… That is one of the points many of us have been making. If a person is causing problems then we deal with the person
I can’t speak to any of the random members or even the WTF members, but while I strongly oppose any rule banning anything related to firearms, I strongly support dealing quickly and decisively with anyone who does something stupid or dangerous with a firearm (at the space or otherwise).
As far as open carry goes, I will say that I currently conceal carry, and after January 1st I have no intention of changing that. My reasons are two fold. Primarily because I consider it rude. As I mentioned above, as someone who didn’t know anything about guns my first encounters with people openly carrying was very uncomfortable (particularly considering that they were usually shouting at me), so I consider it to be rude. That said, if a situation were to arise such as @AndrewLeCody described above I might still open carry while that situation was active. I also will not open carry as a general rule because I believe that many people are rude and intolerant and will hence call the police and require me to deal with that to ease their emotional distress–though the latter is more directed at open carry in the general public rather then at the space.
The above are my opinions on open carry and why I will not normally do so, it shouldn’t be construed as a comment on anyone else’s decision to carry openly. We speak a great deal in our society about tolerance, but I have found that even those who speak most about it on some issues find themselves very intolerant on others.
One of the problems the pro gun folks are having with this conversation, is that the anti gun folks talk as if ANYONE can open carry. That is absolutely false.
The only people that will be able to open carry pistols come Jan 1, 2016 are CHL holders and police. CHL holders are, as a group, the most law abiding, least trouble causing, folks you will find anywhere. Police statistics show that in Texas, (and in most states with CHL) that CHL holders are 3x less likely than Police officers to be convicted of any crime. If you look at just murder and manslaughter, then Texas CHL holders are 8.5x less likely to commit those crimes than the general population of Texas.
Think about that for a minute… most of the anti-gun crowd say to “call the police”, but the police are 3x times more likely to cause problems than CHL holders. CHL holders are 8.5x less likely to shoot you than the general public.
About 2% of the Texas population has a CHL… that is after nearly 20 years of CHL’s being available in Texas. That means that there are likely about 20 people at DMS that have a CHL, and ONLY those 20 would be able to legally open carry, of those 20, I doubt more than one or two would entertain the idea of open carrying on a regular basis. Since CHL holders are statistically much less trouble than police officers, do you really think open carry is going to be a problem at DMS?
Statistics like this are why pro gun people tend to be dismissive of the irrational fears of many in the anti gun crowd. We get that you don’t like guns, we get that you don’t generally like gun owners, but we absolutely do not agree with you about those fears and bigotries.
