Actually Alex and Allen’s proposed wording when the poll was posted(I do not know if this has changed since then) was “we prefer concealed carry” nothing more, Brooks added his own wording when he made the poll. Allen argured against such additional wording like “…over open carry” being added to the end of the statement because it made the rule more partial to one side of the argument.
Yep, I am aware, but I was mostly referring to any potential additions/changes. Until a final ‘rule’ is developed and voted on the content is always subject to change. I didn’t really mind Brooks rewording, because I was familiar with what Allen proposed. I am concerned that the proposed ruling didn’t fundamentally change the positions of people according to the poll. This is an extremely divisive issue and if we don’t take a breath and act more reasonably we could cause a rift that would ultimately lead to the space closing.
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Lol, i’m done on this thread, man.
Far from a troll, i guess having intelligent conversation is considered trolling around here?
Yall have fun with it, the @Troll has spoken.
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Been watching this. A couple of observations, and a couple of thoughts.
First, the results of the first poll pretty closely track the opinions of the public at large. It is therefore reasonable to say, that a significant majority of DMS members support your civil right to bear arms, and they extend that to legally carry firearms within the Space. It follows, that any rule which abridges legal carrying is contrary to the wishes of the membership…
I also observe, that even among second amendment supporters, few seem enthusiastic about the prospect of open carry within the space, and no one supports unsafe handling practices.
Even among those who do not appear to be second amendment supporters, there appears to be a consensus that DMS should permit lawful concealed carry without rule.
So, perhaps, a reasonable compromise set of rules:
xx. Firearms - Members may work on firearms within the space, provided:
- All firearms must be brought into the space in cases made for the purpose of transporting firearms, and be kept in unloaded condition, and where possible, be rendered un-fireable by disassembly. A member may be in possession of either firearms, or ammunition, but not both, except:
a). Members possessing a valid concealed handgun license may possess loaded firearms, provided that the Member may not remove the firearm from it’s holster at any time whatsoever, unless to use in defense of persons or property in accordance with Texas law.
b).Members are requested to keep their firearms fully concealed unless circumstances render concealment impractical. The Makerspace requests that all members make every reasonable attempt not to frighten or endanger other members while exercising their constitutional rights under law.
I doubt this would perfectly please everyone, however it might serve as a rational middle ground.
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This. Yes. Absolutely.
Trigger / barrel lock?
Bravo Trapper! That seems quite reasonable.
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Not left unattended?
Not needed, since you can’t have the two elements necessary for the gun to fire at the same time anyway.
And given the theftability of firearms, or people messing them up, I doubt we need to tell them not to stay close to them.
I see a few minor problems and suggest this modification
xx. Firearms - Members may work on firearms within the space, provided:
- All firearms must be brought into the space in covered cases and be kept in unloaded condition, except:
a). Members possessing a valid concealed handgun license may possess loaded hand guns, provided
that the Member abides by local, state, and Federal laws.
b) Members are requested to keep their firearms fully concealed unless circumstances render
concealment impractical.
Since the following rule is applicable to many things beyond firearms, if it is necessary then it shouldn’t be restricted to a section of the rules concerning firearms.
- The Makerspace requests that all members make every reasonable attempt not to frighten or
endanger other members.
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I believe legally you have to maintain possession of the firearm. IE; you can’t just walk away from it. But I could be wrong. If it is not illegal then it is most importantly un-ethical.
It isn’t particularly clear cut. For instance when I was machining my lower receiver on the Bridgeport, I had to use the restroom during the couple of hours it took me.
The moment I started machining it that block of aluminum became a ‘firearm’ according to federal law. Even though it isn’t conceivably possible for it to fire until the machining was complete and it was assembled into a complete ‘gun’
I think I prefer my version Walter, but I wouldn’t complain about yours. My background is in competition shooting, and in most events like that, careful control is maintained over when the ammo can get near the gun, and chambering or ejecting loaded rounds can only be done when supervised by an range officer, or in specially designated safe areas with a bullet trap. The “one or the other” concept comes straight out of the shooting sports, and it works. Gunsmiths don’t use loaded rounds for testing, and our members shouldn’t either. While your reference to applicable law on removing your gun from the holster does cover the same things as “don’t remove it from your holster”, I think my language is clearer and simpler.
I wasn’t thinking the ammo would ever be placed in the gun, while at the space. After all the rule as written is that the gun is unloaded, period. I was thinking that I frequently keep a box or two of ammo in my tool bag, should I decide to stop by the range on the way home after do work on the gun.
Your language may be clearer, but I can think of many reasonable exceptions, which is why I suggest the only abiding criteria is governing law. For instance I have holster that I need to remove the gun from if I use the rest room. As long as this is done in the privacy of a bathroom, it isn’t a concern of ‘scaring or endangering someone’, but your version would make it a rule violation.
Hah. Well, I think if anyone complains about you breaking that rule, we’re going to need to talk about a whole new set of rules on appropriate behavior in the bathroom!
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Is there anything in our kind of restrictive lease that prevents firearms
on premises, or working on them?
Sincerely,
Tim Nielsen
No. You can find the full lease agreement on our wiki: https://dallasmakerspace.org/w/images/6/65/Dallas_Makerspace_Lease_Monetary.pdf
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Really not part of the discussion but something to think about.
In the Army we had a discharge Barrel at the front and back entrance to most building were Firearms could be safely unloaded. Simple design, 55 gallon drum filled about halfway with sand, with a 4 inch piece of pipe welded to the lid. operation was simple, eject the magazine, clip or removed any rounds. Charge the weapon, Insert barrel of weapon into pipe pull trigger… Weapon can now be considered SAFE (Never unloaded, a Firearm should always considered to be loaded and treated as such).
200+ posts… Damn guys.
In all seriousness though… the best tactic is to talk to the person whom you are having an issue with. Communication is key.
One person once had an issue with something that I was watching on the computer. Said person talked to me about it. Me, being the nice guy that I am, stopped and since there was another room open, I resumed what I was watching in another room.
Point being, a bunch of mis-understandings can be resolved by communication. IF someone is being unsafe, tell them. Most people would rather be told about an issue than be on the receiving end of a nasty-gram from the BoD.
I would say that most of the current rules are enough for most people. Bottom line is I would rather the space still be a place of liberty and freedom that I remember from 1+ years ago, than for us to have a rule restricting everything. (a haven if you will from overbearing, control-freaks.)
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Good words, @Tapper and @wandrson!
I like the general tone of the proposed suggestions but I have two additional suggestions. Both are intended to be constructive.
(1) I am under the impression that we don’t allow working on other people’s cars for money in the auto shop due to some kind of either insurance or liability issues (OK guys … if I have the gist of this correct, I don’t need to know the intricate details of the Auto Shop liability). In a similar vein, I suggest that we research the ATF definition of gunsmithing (i.e., 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11) and the new rule ATF Rul. 2015-1; and determine if we need to address gunsmithing since we are specifically stating that members may work on firearms. My question is if someone either knowingly or unknowingly “engages in the business of gunsmithing” at the Space, do we have any liability? I don’t know the answer. Perhaps we want to say “work on their own firearms”?
(2) Slight rewording (change of word order) … Possibly frivolous but the pedant in me insists:
xx. Firearms - Members may work on firearms within the space, provided:
All firearms brought into the space
must be
in covered cases and be kept in unloaded condition, except …
(As previously written it REQUIRES me to bring my firearms into the space, whereas rewritten it requires me to put it into a case and unload it …)
Chris
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