Poll on Open Carry

DMS General
#121

@Jeremy, you obviously have more experience discussing these points than I. I like how you are able to chime the points I agree with and not come off as a nut. It is a talent.

I don’t want to divide the space either. But, I’m having a hard time seeing the middle ground when the other side seems to really want to ban ALL GUNS and the examples they produce feel made up and not based in actions actually happening at DMS.

Example:

Personally, I have never seen a member of DMS do this. It is an incredibly unsafe action that I feel no one would condone or do. For wood worker that have no ideas about guns, this would be the equivalent of locking the circular saw on, taping the guard back so it isn’t covering the blade and leaving it on a table next to you running.

@rablack97, I’m not trying to target you personally, but these kinds of scenarios are the things that just make me face palm. How do we find middle ground for made up scenarios? In particular the ones that seem absurd?

I hope I’m not belittling peoples feeling, just trying to show what it feels like from the other side, because I feel thoughtful response rather than party line rhetoric is what will bring us back together.

My background with guns for everyone:
I shot some small rifles and shot guns as a child in boy scouts. I went on a hunt as a kid once and failed to find a single thing to shoot. Then I took a very large break from firearms until I joined the makerspace. At this point I found a group of guys willing to talk about firearms and reeducate me on safety and use. I went to a shooting event on a members land where I was able to try other members guns and just had a great time shooting targets and got to handle my first 1911. I loved it, good people, good time, and never felt unsafe. After that event I bought my 1911. From there I learned at the DMS how to strip, clean, and safely handle the gun. I continued getting guns here and there and brought the rest of my family into the hobby of shooting targets. I taught myself how to reload at DMS and learned how bullets really work and how useless and safe they really are when not loaded in a gun. I then met @Gimli (Russell) about a year plus ago and he opened my eyes to the world of competitive shooting and the art of reloading for accuracy. He taught me how to make long range shots with iron sights. It is a really cool skill, because it is completely analog and you learn the mechanics of how sights, the gun, and your head interact. I’ve found I’m a better shot than most DMS members I’ve shot with. I’m not sure if that is a scary thing or a good thing for the rest of the membership. I found it kind of funny that gun knowledge in no way seems to correlate to accuracy. :wink:

I enjoy this group and it has opened this hobby to me as well as many others. It has also been an incredibly accepting group, but I feel like this is changing especially the emphasis we put on worse case scenario hypothetical debates. I tried to appeal to this acceptance characteristic with my large man comparison. I like it when DMS is open to all of us dumb unwashed masses, we bring each other up when we are united.

3 Likes
#122

I don’t know if anyone of the posters want to ban all guns, but I agree the examples seem made up. Particularly the one’s involving rifles. The open carry of a rifle has been legal in Texas for far longer then DMS existed. Yet I know of not a single instance of the objectionable behavior described on this thread that has occurred in the space. I simply don’t understand the desire to create rules for things that have not happened, nor seem likely to particularly when rules all too often end up being applied to situations well beyond what they are ‘sold for.’

That said, it appears that a middle ground on the subject may have been achieved last night. So I suggest we table the discussion until such time as we have more then just the same old rehashing that this thread has turned into.

#123

Just a footnote: In the board meeting it was stated that one or more members informed a board member they would be open carrying on January 1. I believe it was stated that some on the board had a desire to “get ahead of this issue” because it was a certainty.

1 Like
#124

Okay, but simply open carrying isn’t even close to the kind of objectionable behavior people have been using as examples of “the problem.” If the simple display of a holstered handgun by someone who in all likelihood has already been carrying concealed at the space is a problem then I doubt this issue can be resolved amicably.

2 Likes
#125

Wrong!

We’re said this multiple times… we just don’t want open carry. Stop fear mongering.

#126

[quote=“wandrson, post:124, topic:6782”]
objectionable behavior people have been using
[/quote]I would suggest that both of the more extreme sides of this issue have exhibited behavior that was less than ideal. Frankly, if this was the Kingdom of Jay, I’d call the poll at 60/40, lock the thread and send everyone off to go enjoy the holiday. There’s nothing more to be gained here. Since I’m not in charge though, carry on!

#127

I wasn’t referring to posting behavior, but the provided examples of gun handling behavior that people find objectionable. The fact is that none of this behavior has occurred at the space, and the new law isnt likely to change that since it only affects people who havent caused any problems so far. In short, folks were trying to create rules about behavior that has never been a problem at the space.

1 Like
#128

But it has… it happened at the old space occasionally. I don’t want to force someone to talk about something they don’t want to talk about, so I’m just going to leave it at that. Basically, there were a few members that would jokingly point unloaded guns at people accidentally. As in they were pointing a gun at a wall and someone opened a door and the person holding the gun turned around (with the gun pointing forward) to see who it was.

#129

Ok this makes total sense to me, i can see why a responsible CHL owner would not want to screw up what they’ve spent time to earn.

I’ve only been at the space a few months and i’ve seen some people do some really weird things. So I’m not making up scenarios, i’m forecasting credible scenarios that have a good chance of happening.

Its a comfort level, same with any tool, the higher the comfort, the higher the risk of carelessness. If the general population feels that everyone is gonna abide by the rules set and or responsibly handle themselves accordingly the okie dokie. Your no longer reasoning with person about a machine, your reasoning with a person about a gun. I’d just rather not put myself in a spot where somebody has to tell me hey can you do something with that, it makes me nervous.

I’m gonna be curious to see what threads come up after the rules have been set, and how many people try to bend the rules per se about how they percieve they should handle there own gun in a public place.

I’m getting the popcorn out for these, the complaints are gonna be classic.

Gonna do my own @Nick face palms :smile: Either way, i hope it all works out in everyones best interests, so we can all be happy, coexist and make STUFF.

#130

First, what you describe is not the same as previous examples- accidental discharges, loaded weapons being left on tables, and groups with rifles roaming the halls.

Second, since you are now bringing up things that occurred well in the past, why do we suddenly need a rule change now? If the rule changes weren’t needed when these incidents occurred, what is the justification for them now?

#131

BTW, @bscharff All guns are to be treated as loaded at all times. Any one ‘playing’ with one should be banned, and that doesn’t need a new rule to do. It is covered just like any other reckless behavior.

6 Likes
#132

That sounds like accidental behavior where something should have been said at the time and if repeated, action taken.

That is not behavior that I would expect any firearms owner to support the right to do. Nor should it take any written policy for any firearms owner to know that was unacceptable behavior.

My own interpretation of the concealed/open carry situation is that unless DMS provides a specific space for clearing weapons, loaded handguns can’t be removed from the holster unless the use of force is justified. I would expect that by the standards of the law, without a designated place to clear weapons, any firearm to be worked on, cleaned, etc within the space would have to enter the space unloaded and remain that way.

3 Likes
#134

I find it confusing that the people who are not in favor of open carry are being derided for their reliance on ‘worst case scenarios’ when the people who are insistant that open carry is important feel strongly that they are in danger and might need their gun to defend themselves at any time in the space.

4 Likes
#135

Cait,

If we want to open the rules up to deal with ‘worst case scenarios’ then therre are plenty of other more likely ones to deal with considering all of the potentially dangerous tools, equipment and materials in use at the space.

As a general rule it seems that the space doesn’t create rules until there is a problem. Do we need a thousand pages of rules for every conceivable possibility? The bottom line is that nothing is likely to occur on Jan 1st versus the last year, beyond you might see a gun that was otherwise hidden from you.

#136

Police prevent violent crime by cleaning up after, and punishing the guilty, providing a deterrent effect. That police are necessary shows that I might be the unfortunate recipient of one of those violent crimes. I would rather not wait minutes for help in a situation where seconds count.

And open carry isn’t about feeling in danger at the space, it is about going about as much of your day in the exact same state of preparedness as possible. Why should we have to change how we are outfitted for the day simply because we elected to spend time with friends and acquaintances at the maker space?

#137

Because some of us don’t know you, and don’t know how safe you are with that. Why should I be regularly subjected to potentially ignorant and irresponsible gun owners (how am I supposed to tell the difference just by looking at you?) on the extremely remote chance that DMS experiences a hostage situation?

2 Likes
#138

You don’t have to be.

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#139

Awesome! Thanks for agreeing that carrying in the makerspace is generally unnecessary and introduces more risks than it prevents. I’m glad we could work this out in such a cordial manner.

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#141

Given that, perhaps California or one of the other states with restricted gun laws. If you go out in public in Texas then you are in frequent contact with armed people you don’t know.

#142

What was that you said to me about insulting language earlier?

2 Likes