Equipment for electronics lab

Guys, the NI tools are industry standard. IMO NI’s approach of ‘virtual instrumentation’ is a superior approach.

Virtual Instrumentation is the idea that you don’t need a computer in each instrument–you just need one computer which would be a PC, and all the instruments hooked into it. So not only can you use NI toolset to do the actual instrument acquisition and control (even programmatically), but now the data is in the PC…a very convenient place for it to be since you may need to operate upon it or log the data in, say, database or text files.

The real power of NI toolset is the software, hence NI’s old slogan,‘the software is the instrument’. What I think makes sense for makerspace is windows PC, old school box with PCI slots, and a copy of LabVIEW running upon it. You see, LabVIEW is the flagship data acquisition software product that allows users to easily acquire data from instruments and such, and perform whatever operations upon it that they so desire. Its a graphical programming language, and all the big players in the industry are using it, which is why I said it is industry standard.

With the PC and LabVIEW instrumentation setup, you can hook the PC up to just about any instrument. Most lab instruments have GPIB or USB or ethernet on them and there is already a LabVIEW driver available for free out there. These drivers will allow you to programmatically initiate measurement, calibration, settings operations on the device, and move acquired data into PC, even display on screen with dials, graphs, charts, 3D plots, excel dumps, SQL database dumps, really anything you can think of to do with the data. So now you can simply use the setup to take measurements -OR- you can set up complex measurement and control systems where you use the PC to automate such measurements between many devices.

I’m gonna have to force myself not to write a book here, and my little post does not do the topic justice, but the primary takeaway is that mentioned ‘data aquisition devices’ in my first post are exactly what virtual bench is. But we are not limited to just NI data acquisision devices. Traditional instrumentation ALSO can function as data acquisition devices. I think the Tek scope in the lab has GPIB interface. Most digital power supplies have some system for programmatic control for cycling voltages, current limits and such.

You can get cheap ($99) usb cards to get a bunch of general purpose DIO lines. Many vendors sell ‘analog input’ and ‘analog output’ and ‘counter timer’ and ‘digital I/O’ hybrid devices for not very much. All you need to really use all this stuff is a PC running LabVIEW (and maybe a GPIB interface for lab instruments). I think the PC with LabVIEW is where to start with something like this. Then it will become obvious that we need to ensure programmatic control capability on future electronic equipment acquisitions, which is not at all hard to do these days.

With much respect to the commenters @Robert_Davidson, @Carpman, @Clayton this is meant as a comical interjection with a serious intent. @schrodinger123 have you been to the space? :wink:

We cannot get the members to keep the benches clean or replace the toilet paper in the bathrooms.

This is a great piece of gear and we should have it on our radar but we do need some basics covered first. Keep in mind that very few members need this level of equipment when we could use many more of basic tools.

As Robert was saying, if we could get a great deal and it is a limited offer then we should pursue it. Otherwise DMS is better served with multiples of good basic gear.

While automating bench cleaning and toilet paper replacement may not be well suited for a virtual instrumentation system, it for sure could be done that way. I’ll check the patent server for ‘method and apparatus for toilet paper dispensing and roll replacement’.

In my previous post, I think I may have left folks feeling like I was suggesting an expensive approach. Not at all, I’m advocating the cheap approach to address the possible need for a virtual bench system.

Here is what my approach entails:

  1. old box style windows 7 or later pc with pci slots and 100 or so gig free hd space. (cost: cheap for makerspace, yes?)
  2. LabVIEW (any students at makerspace who can do free install for educational purposes?)
  3. PCI gpib card. (Saw a good one on ebay for $160, saw some questionable ones <$50)
  4. Now we can hook existing stuff to PC, and to add data acquisition capabilities, we could scrounge for USB/GPIB/PCI cards on internet as need arises (various costs, but most things can be found cheap)

So now, to add data acquisition capability, according to my calculations, looks like one computer and $160. Now we have a ‘virtual bench’ of our own.

FYI for people that have no clue what we are talking about here is what the software looks like.

And to add to Lampys point (As an Amateur Doing basic power supply and Soldering)

I would be much more comfortable with this type of equipment for the simple fact I know I can’t break it and I know what it’s doing.

A lot of you guys are way more advanced than I could ever want to be but I will say from an amateur perspective the cool thing about this is it’s extremely clean there are not wires everywhere and things that have to be hooked up etc.

it’s all Slotted cables and extremely clean.

Which is at the heart of the issue on the room people just don’t put things back so my intention is to only simplify not make things more complex.

In the software you just change the values and it outputs the power you need as well as there are colored LED’s on the machine which tell you what port to use.

Robert, thanks for the shot. I think it helps a lot for folks to be able to see what exactly we are talking about when we say ‘virtual bench’ or virtual instrumentation.

The interface you see in the shot looks to me like a LabVIEW interface, but it could have been implemented in NI’s CVI (c compiler). I can probably even get the code for that very interface, and yes, we could certainly get CVI. Not only could you use this interface for the virtual bench hardware, but you could use same to autoconfigure and acquire from, say, the Tek scope or even any other scope (using GPIB on back of scope… look at it, its there. Probably also one on the little digital scope. If not, its USB or RS-232 and yes we can use those ports to control instrumentation)

But we can do oh so much more than that. There are options of literally thousands of similar interfaces so you can choose the one that best suits your purpose. But it does not end there… hundreds and thousands of interfaces are free in public domain for ANY electronic instrument choice. AND, you can even configure your own interface. These are the options that you get with a PC loaded with NI software tools.

So for those who want to use a virtual instrumentation type system, a person skilled with said products could set up interfaces for any/all lab equipment/data acquisition systems (like the virtual bench hardware setup) and put icons on desktop for each instrument. All that is required is that the NI tools are installed on the computer in question, and educational licenses are free.

I would love to have access to a virtual bench hardware unit. But what I am proposing is an emphasis on the software, since ‘the software is the instrument’. The solution of using machine with applicable NI toolset and some interface equipment can provide this very interface AND opens the door to an infinite set of solutions for ANY instrument measurement or automation need that we can’t even forsee today.

There are basically three threads plus my starter thread discussing the same thing. Should we shut them down and start a single thread?

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/mobile-electronics-repair-maintenance-fabrication-cart-proposal/736

These other threads don’t all completely overlap. The Cart thread is specifically for a mobile electronics cart, to be shared between departments. It has nothing directly to do with improving any one department’s equipment.

I am taking ideas away from these threads. For example, I’m wondering about implementing NI’s virtual electronics lab on the cart? Maybe Automotive would be able to use that to analyze automotive electronics? Maybe the radio corner could use this equipment in their work, too?

Sorry for chiming in so much, but I really like the virtual instrumentation on a cart approach. The reason is that I saw endless application for NI software toolsets for the projects being implemented at makerspace. Yes, I am a new addition to makerspace, but I have fallen in love with the place and I see infinite possibility and boundless talent and enthusiasm.

For the virtual instrumentation on a cart, I saw some neat projects at makerspace that I thought were very interesting to get programmatic control over using NI toolset:

*Oculus rift and associated hardware/software. I found an existing driver/API for Emotive Epoc (that crazy brain sensor thing that sits on your head looking like its downloading your brain’s contents to the CIA). And for the rift, I can get control of most windows interfaces through special software hooks, so I can basically control their interface programatically and bring acquired oculus data into LabVIEW where we can operate on it/edit it/control it/do whatever to it. Cool application for ‘cart’ concept, no?

*3D printer creation/implementation. If you want to get past the difficulties of implementing all the hardware control, I can pick existing/debugged/tested pieces of code, assemble them together and provide interface for a 3d printing device. Don’t know what the status of this project is, or if its done already, but the NI toolset would speed development by a huge time savings factor in that we dont have to make everything from scratch… just sow pre-developed drivers together at a high level should get it done. (Oh, then debug).

*Robotics development. NI partnered with Lego to create Mindstorms set (EV3 and NXT). They provided modified version of LabVIEW for kids as the programming environment. Yes you can also program the controllers with LabVIEW. In addition to the Lego stuff, which is probably more fun for big kids than the little ones, you can use the rapid develpment programming environment to target FPGA and microcontroller platforms that you can put on larger robots. And you can control them wirelessly with bluetooth or wifi. And there are image processing, character recognition, pattern matching, and artificial intelligence code modules available that are already developed. …and…and…and… i could wear my keyboard out with the possibilites…

*Pinball. Wouldn’t it be neat to have the computer play pinball? yup… the cart helps here too.

*Laser/LED/Optics- There are cheap lasers that can be controlled via these software tools. There are inexpensive optic sensors that can take in light and break it into spectrum in real time and possibly even sense polarization. Programmatic control over a setup like this allows for some very cool possibilities.

*metalwork-some metalwork machines are actually implemented with NI toolset. Don’t know about the ones you have because I’m not a metal guy and I haven’t used them. But suppose that you have some automated tools that really have to be used together to get a cool result. We could tap in with the toolset and make that possible. We could set up X Y and rotational table with drilling device or whatever is required to cut into metal and make our own milling machine. The possibilies are limited only by imagination

*woodworking-same as above

I could keep going, but I think you get the idea.

So my thoughts are that a cart would be cool. When you get to a project where you need a system in one place for a long time or forever, post a PC in that spot. I think, in general, getting an NI toolset in place at Makerspace and applied to the appropriate projects will GREATLY enhance capabilities and add many,many more new ones.

I think it’s fine that you make a lot of contributions to the discussion, especially as your comments on virtual instrumentation are interesting to me. I know that some people don’t like a lot of traffic on the site, and I’ve been warned that if I post too much, people might start avoiding my posts, but I don’t understand that mindset.

I’m excited about the possibilities of Labview. I would like to see more discussion of it on the existing thread about the proposed cart. Mobile Electronics Repair / Maintenance / Fabrication Cart proposal

Thank you for the support, gentlemen.

So I am a newcomer to the space, but I see enormous budding potential, and I would like to use my skill set to advance the efforts here. I have about 15 years experience implementing computer automation/lab automation/assembly line automation/robotics automation etc. etc. using NI products and I am former employee of NI. I can assist whomever needs it in finding the best path forward for automating their project/design/lab, etc. I’d really prefer to proliferate the knowledge to the members of the space, place the project on a good trajectory toward automation success, and let members learn to control their own automation designs, along with appropriate support as needed.

Come to think, NI may offer some free software and additional support for non-profit organizations to enhance the entire experience. They may even offer some free hardware, doesn’t hurt to ask.

So here comes my plug: If you have a project you are working on that you think could be enhanced via computerized automation, I would like to help you. Don’t hesitate to contact me.

And if you are confused by how we started with the topic of virtual bench and wound up at computerized automation, well let me explain. Virtual bench software is nothing more than computerized automation of laboratory measurment and control hardware. In other words configuration and measurment using laboratory hardware falls under the heading of computerized automation and control. I just began using the heading of computerized automation because it is more general and can apply across the board to many, many projects at makerspace which is my true aim. Hence the recommendation for the general purpose NI software that can run virtual bench software AND do so many other things around the space.

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James I would like to take you up on your offer,

If you don’t mind could you look into the cost of licensing of NI Labview and the cost NI VirtualBench for DMS.

Feel Free to PM me at [email protected] if you have any Questions on DMS and or you need the EIN etc.

But as far as pricing feel free to post here. I was very impressed with the usability of the NI Framework from a Amateurs perspective.

Would you be able to give us a product demonstration? We could schedule it like a class, and you could show us some things that we could do.

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I am slated to do some sort of class for makerspace, and I think this makes a good topic that folks may be interested in. Class topics I had in mind were “Automating Using LabVIEW (Graphical Programming)”, or maybe a class like “Applications of Virtual Instrumentation at Makerspace”. The latter may be a better place to start so that everyone can see the ‘why’ before expending a bunch of time on “how”. So I will open a new topic in a general group and guage the interest level from that. Please allow a few days for me to properly address on the forum. Thx for the interest…

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Robert,

Sounds good. Please allow a few days for me to get the appropriate information to you. I think this one will go best working hand-in-hand with NI staff. I’m unsure all of the options available to non-profit organizations and also allowances that can be made for educational purposes. But I think there will likely be cool options. So its the holiday season now, but I will get the information and work towards a team effort with the makers of the software to bring the best available options to front and center so we can take advantage of the cool options there.

Schrodinger123, I have one of the usb GIO cards for Labview you were referring to, that I could make available.

Anyone have any ideas where we can get a fast desktop, and suitable monitor to run Labview on, for the electronics room?

We could build our own!

How fast does it need to be? What specs does it need?

I have a Sony Desktop with dual monitors I would be willing to donate to the cause. I will have to look up the specs but it is a Window 98 era machine.

As far as a computer for Labview is concerned,

It would be nice if someone loaned a computer for this use, as opposed to utilizing a makerspace owned computer.

Also, Usually, the stated minimum specs give less than desirable performance. The actual requirements would relate to the complexity of the circuit/signal under simulation. A modern gaming computer should cover it.

The minimum stated specs are:

Pentium
. 4/M or equivalent
RAM
. 256 MB 1 GB
Screen Resolution
. 1024 x 768 pixels 1024 x 768 pixels
OS
. Windows 8.1/8/7/Vista (32-bit and 64-bit)
. Windows XP SP3 (32-bit)
. Windows Server 2012 R2 (64-bit)
. Windows Server 2008 R2 (64-bit)
. Windows Server 2003 R2 (32-bit)
. Windows 8.1/8/7/Vista (32-bit and 64-bit)
. Windows XP SP3 (32-bit)
. Windows Server 2012 R2 (64-bit)
. Windows Server 2008 R2 (64-bit)
. Windows Server 2003 R2 (32-bit)
Disk Space
. 500 MB 5 GB (includes default drivers from NI Device Drivers DVD)

Sorry folks for delayed response. Out on vacation.

My $0.02 about having a virtual instrumentation solution would be the following:

GPIB is a standard, and any device would work. USB GPIB devices are very nice. There are also ethernet devices that can be connected to from any PC, and are also very nice. There are PCI devices which would suit our purposes IMO, even ISA devices. The GPIB bus can control many devices as the bus can be daisy chained (more devices than we would probably ever have a need to control simultaneously). So if we can put our hands on any GPIB device, we can make it work. We will need GPIB cables, though.

As for a machine, I recommend a Win 7 or later system, 250GB HD or more, and lots of screen geometry. There are lots of plotting options and the choicest programming environment is a graphical programming language, so its best to provide a large amount of pixels to work with. I would choose a high res display OR two lower res displays if I got everything I wanted in such a system. Also, NI softtware products tend to be resource hogs so its good to have healthy RAM, 4GB+ ideal.

Again, apologies for being out of pocket, but I like the enthusiasm, and hope we are able to advance tool capabilities of the Space harnessing the power of the PC and easily customizable high level programming.

Hope this helps…

Fully agree it needs to be a decent PC.
Have you had a chance to give NI a call for pricing?

Robert