The Painting Booth Thing (Again)

DMS General
#1

As a “business” from what I understand, we would be under the same scrutiny as a paint shop given the amount of aerosols we would be using on the property. Ok so what do paint shops have to do? To follow the law, they have to log how much they use. I’m not saying all paint shops do this, but we are talking about risk to the organization.

Ok so, given what we know about the people at the space, do you think people would sign a log book on a routine basis if it wasn’t an automatic thing they didnt have to think about? Ok, so let’s just say the answer is “big fat friggin no”. So are we willing to open the organization up to fines and legal issues because a few less than excellent members didnt sign a log book?

This is the same as Hatcher’s. Would I looooove to reload ammo, and other stuff? Yeah, but the board has said there’s too much risk.

The Whole Spray Paint Thing (Again)
#2

It seems like a couple of different arguments are proceeding concurrently here.

  1. Is spray painting illegal in Carrollton? (criminal)

  2. Can DMS support spray painting inside its facility? (civil)

Here’s what is searchable on Carrollton’s MuniCode site (see attached)

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I get 3 prohibitions from this:

  1. no paint goes into the storm drain system
  2. you have to have a painting booth to paint cars
  3. stripes in streets were amended to be painted 6 inches wide

There is a codicil to Texas shooter laws, which allows one to shoot someone vandalizing one’s property, but only at night. Spray painting in the parking lot at night might look like just that kind of vandalism.

I’m thinking that Building Code and Fire Code are requirements for facilities and storage of materials onsite. The penalties for Building and Fire violations of these types are civil code, not criminal.

Back to the original point: a painting booth is no small thing, but it sure would be cool. Somehow a small-sized auto body shop is able to a wrangle a place to paint cars in this city. Maybe we should take a Field Trip to see how they do it.

#3

So you have a few folks who didn’t log the use of 67 grams of Red or White from a spray can… Unless the Fire Marshal has a real woody to find fault, I can’t see that being the issue.

A member spray painting a box in an Automotive Capable spray booth, has a very slim chance of getting blowed-up or asphyxiated.

This brings us to the crux of the biscuit; are we willing to find out what has qualified in Carrollton as a serviceable paint booth? Again, I say it is worth a Field Trip.

#4

True story. There is a car club in the North Texas area that is much like the Dallas Makerspace except they work on cars only. They were looking to purchase a building for their Clubhouse. They purchased a small Body Shop that had gone out of business. The building had 5 work bays and an OSHA approved paint booth. Sounds like a great Makerspace for them. After a few years OSHA was forced to shut down their paint booth because no one logged their paint usage. Noboody in the club was willing to sign their name on a new OSHA application that was willing to go to jail and pay fines for the abuse of others. Don’t you think this would also happen at DMS? You are not getting my signature.

4 Likes
#5

To vent a lot of fumes, would require a lot of fan. In the presence of volatile fumes, the fan would have to be explosion proof. These things are pricey, here is an example:

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#6

The logging of paint and other volatiles, it isn’t just paint, are dictated and controlled by EPA laws. The FM becomes involved with the paint booth for fireproofing and explosion proofing aspects of painting.

#7

I would like to hear more about this club.
flagging myself as off-topic

1 Like
#8

As Rich said, it wasn’t the build of the booth that’s the problem. Honestly it’s the easiest part.

It’s the logging and auditing that makes it untenable for us.

1 Like
#9

No one logged their paint usage???

People at DMS log their 3D print plastic usage, TiG & MiG welding usage, Laser Cutter usage, why would they shy away from logging their paint usage? Especially if they bought and brought the paint?

We set up a kiosk, with a scale, just like in 3D Printing. The only difference is that if you bring your own paint, you don’t owe a dime.

I’ll put my name on that. In fact, if you plan to spray paint, you get to put your name on it, too.

#10

We still have caught plenty of unlogged MIG time; I expect with the new electronic gas monitor being installed shortly we’ll catch more. We once had a guy 3d print with the MIG gun for 3-4 hours, use most of the wire on the spool, and then try to say they used like 20-30 min of torch time.

We don’t monitor nor charge for this (though if you are backpurging it’s encourages to kick in something for it)

We don’t charge or monitor this, unless you are using our filament in which case you weight it.

I won’t speak for laser’s current status, but unlike the other things there are at least ways to get some data from this to track it.

Unlike these systems, with painting there wouldn’t be a programmatic way to do it.

1 Like
#11

There is an easy way to track it; a motion sensor in the paint booth starts the Big Brother Video Monitoring. Yes, I know; the 1st act of a perp would be to spray paint the camera lens…so Hollywood. Let’s put HD Cams on that 30 foot ceiling, the scissor jack ride would add to the suspense!!

SprayPaintSurveylanceCam|487x302

#12

Every single one of those examples has had proven cases of people not logging some or all of their use (both accidentally and deliberately). Just 1 case of missed logging can result in MAJOR fines. Astrud is personally aware of just one inspection resulting in over $40,000 in fines, and this was at a respected, professionally run company with paid employees that were specifically tasked to deal with the paperwork required.

DMS does NOT need exposure to this kind of liability. We have a verified history of members NOT doing what they should, and the extensive detailed paperwork required by the EPA, OSHA, etc will not happen.

2 Likes
#13

We’ve had members actively conceal things with a variety of means, and this still requires very accurate tracking even with compliant members to ensure what’s put down matches.

What type of paint is being sprayed? was the scale tared properly before being used? If they have multiple cans did they weigh each can properly? are they putting their finger on the scale to avoid saying they used as much as they did?

When we have a minor cost problem, like with MIG and 3d printing, so be it. When it creates a liability and a large cost potential, it becomes more risk that the benefits we gain.

#14

Seriously, if some user didn’t log 2 oz of spray paint used, this would result in a major fine? This is beyond the scope of my imagining. Who has this sort of power without recourse?

I know people that can stop them.

#15

Because it won’t be just 2oz of spray paint. Maybe from one member on one day, but I guarantee that that will not be the only violation.

All you have to do is look at Talk. The current woodshop thread is a perfect example, and I can not believe that we will miraculously have 100% compliance is just this one area at DMS.

Ain’t gonna happen.

2 Likes
#16

I still don’t get their motivation…

If a person buys a can of Red at Walmart, with the intent of spray painting even a car in the booth at DMS. Why wouldn’t they log the paint if it cost them nothing afterwards? And, if they failed to log the paint from that one rattle can, why would the EPA care if they put it on a car?

Oh, wait, they have destroyed the Environment. Crops will fail, and all the cows need to die, and babies should be aborted because they are just a scourge on Nature. Humans are a disaster, and the EPA is here to remind us.

Fight the Future!

#17

Why don’t we have members cleaning up the little bits they leave behind? Why not cleanup their oil even if it’s free disposal?

It’s laziness, and a customer mentality

because the volatile organics released aren’t on the car at the end of it, and it’s not going to be one can of paint that goes unlogged.

3 Likes
#18

Actually it is. The EPA had you going and coming. They assessed a fee when that can of paint left the factory, and now they want to assess a fee when you use it; before any profit has ever been realized.

You don’t see a problem with this? Seriously?

#19

And with that it’s clear this is going to be another dead horse thread (or as one would call it a zombie unicorn), like other past threads with all involved regarding the EPA/TECQ/Whathaveyou.

@Team_Moderators ?

2 Likes
#20

I’ll spell it out for you: you are being TRIPLE TAXED!

1st, they tax the manufacturer
2nd, they tax the user
3rd, they tax the profit

If you plan to leave any of your efforts to your children, they have taxed as much as 50% upon that!

How much government are you willing to bear? How much have they aided you in your efforts?