Not good enough for honorarium- Milking the space for less than a

DMS General
#1

I have hosted about a dozen classes, and I’ve received four honorariums thus far. I look at the honorariums as a means to ‘break even’ on the materials and supplies I use in my classes without having to ‘ask’ for materials, keep receipts, and/or justify every scrap of material and/or waste. My classes thus far have generated over $400 class fees, but yet I’m being given grief and rejected for additional classes.

This week, I have had several classes rejected, because they where not ‘worthy’. I don’t think it’s the topic or the material is not the question, but the ‘space’ doesn’t feel that my time is worth a $1/hr.

I may be overreacting, but I feel that we need more teachers and more classes.; Anyone who does their research, creates a proposal, makes slides and/or other aids, brings in their own supplies, and takes their time should be encouraged, not insulted. If the content is questionable, then that’s one thing; but rejecting a class about the relative strengths of joints and adhesives surely is not considered ‘off-topic’ for a space which sees ‘glued-up’ projects on a daily basis.

Here’s my breakdown for time and materials for one of my rejected classes:

Come up with the idea, write it up, go find suitable image(s) & documents, and review related Youtube videos and websites: 2 hours
Build approximately 20 joints using different types of glue and joinery outlined in the description and PDF: 4 hours
Buy the 2 x 4 used in the test/ class: (6) @ $4 = about $24
Buy Hide Glue $varies – use my own equipment to melt glue and using my own glue
Buy Epoxy $varies – using my own stock of West System Epoxy and gluing additive
Setup a jig to hold the test pieces and rig up a weight system: 2 hours
Log the results, make a summary ‘outcome’ document and email to attendees: 1 hour
Setup the area, Conduct the class, and clean up: 3 hours

So in this case, I will have about $40 in materials, and 12+ hours of time; so I’m ‘milking’ the space at the hourly rate of $.80 an hour for my time. I apologize for clearly taking advantage of the membership for requesting the honorarium.

I am aware of at least two other ‘would-be’ teachers which have had classes rejected as well, and both of these people are ‘subject matter experts’ which do not deserve to be insulted. The lack of explanation in the rejection just goes to further discourage people from teaching. To my knowledge, neither of the others have re-applied.

I agree that their should be an approval process for classes, but if you are going to reject a class you should be required to explain why it is being rejected, you should sign your name to your rejection & provide your email, and you should not be rude. Four word sentences are not an explanation in my mind. Instead of simply rejecting a class, if you have a problem with content- why not ask the instructor to edit the description and/or the content. If you are going to hold these classes to a ‘criteria’, then that criteria should be accessible from the ‘submit event’ page so that all would-be presenters can know what the standards are before they start. My impression at this point, is that a class can be rejected for no reason at all and can be rejected (anonymously). I have a problem with this policy, but instead of complaining with a ‘faceless account’, I am signing my name to my posts and my emails.

Among the people I know which have taught, very few are doing this for the money; and if they where doing it for the money- they deserve it. From what I understand honorariums are less than 3% our monthly budget- is that too much to spend for an organization which claims to encourage learning?

---- here’s my rejection email:

The following even you submitted to the Dallas Makerspace Calendar has been rejected.

Joinery SMACKDOWN

Reason: This sounds more like an event than a class. While the experience may be educational, it does not qualify for honorarium…

Dallas Makerspace

Here’s my ‘evil’ description: Obviously, I was just trying to get a paycheck and didn’t put any thought into trying to make a class fun and invite partisipation.???

Are you an ace woodworker? Are your pieces stronger than others? PROVE IT!!!

There are members (like Kee), which advocate for ‘traditional’ adhesives like hide glue, while many members are huge fans of PVA glue. For anyone which have taken any my classes, you would know that I am not a huge fan of pocket screws- I think that amateurs over-use these fasteners, but are they really that much weaker?

The goal of this class is to get a concept of relative strength of common joints and/or adhesives.

This is not a ‘build-it’ class, but rather a ‘break-it’ class. We want to know discover the strength different types of joints and glues. We will discuss the ‘pros and cons’ of each of these as we break them. We will also observe ‘how’ it breaks- the glue, the fastener, the wood, etc.

The concept is that we are going to make this a game/ challenge. We will ‘borrow’ a bunch of clamps and clamp each of the assembled pieces in the exact same manner and then we will hang weight off ‘arm’ and keep adding weight until the joint fails and/or the wood breaks.

The challenge is to bring your own piece and be the ‘king‘

Using (2) 24” 2x4 pine pieces, join the two pieces where one piece connects to the other at 90 degrees to the opposite piece.

Several of these pieces, we will have the same type of joinery, but different types of adhesives. We will grab one of the dry erase boards and track how each piece performs.

Feel free to build up your strongest joint and join the challenge and/or simply show up and watch as we break these pieces apart. Put your name, type of joint, and type glue type on the piece so that we can document how your joint performs.

The only rule is that you are to attach two 24” pieces of Pine 2x4 (1.5”x3.5” finished) with common joints, glues, and/or fasteners. No use of Steel plates, rods, and/or braces. The joint should not require any tool or device which is not at Makerspace- these are all joints that anyone at Makerspace could create.

We will have a second challenge for our ‘audience’ to see who can guess the closest at the failure weight for each piece. The person who can guess the closest will also be crowned a winner.

I could provide information about my other classes which where rejected, but I think I’ve made my case.

Sincerely,

Joe King

2 Likes
Honorarium Auditor Rejected Class
Response to zmetzing
#3

You keep mentioning that you are getting paid less than $1 an hour at this rate. The honorarium is NOT meant to be a form of payment. It was created as a thank you for people volunteering their time to help spread their knowledge to others.

If you are doing classes with a materials fee, consider saving your receipts and getting reimbursed by a committee chair after charging per seat in your class.

5 Likes
#4

I have been charging fees for many of my classes, and the space has doubled their money off of this series. And with all the ‘helpfulness’ in this group, you really want to make us beg for each piece of material and ask ‘mother may I’…

If I choose to spend my own money and accept the honorarium that my business.

Too many people here want to argue and make life difficult, but before I beg for each screw I use; I will stop teaching- like several others have already done.

1 Like
#5

I’m not telling you how to spend your honorarium. I’m telling you how the system was set up and what it is supposed to be. A thank you. Not a payment for service.

Source - I was one of the board members who started the system

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#6

I have given a class just on basic joinery and adhesives, but it was closer to two hours. The reality is that everyone make claims that their stuff is better. In the materials, I outlined 7 different types of joints and three types of adhesives. I also stated that we would discuss the pros and cons of each, but I appreciate someone who has never been to any of my classes to judge how little I teach and that I should only be ‘allowed’ to teach if I spend my own time and money…

#7

Please post in the thread you started.

I also responded to your post and have never taken your classes. Hopefully you can still take my advice knowing that I haven’t taken them.

#8

I appreciate you telling me that my classes don’t have significant amount of information. This is rich coming from someone who has not taken a single one of my classes. If you are going to judge me, at least have spread of support for your argument.

#10

I’ve wanted to understand more about class vs event. Having organized many non-DMS events, I can attest to the investment in time and money and stress. These events were considered important to their organizations.

  • What differentiates a class from an event?
  • What qualities does a class have that makes it worthy of an honorarium/thank you?
  • If the Honorarium system is a Thank You, why do we not offer same for events? Another way of looking at this is, what makes an event unworthy of a token monetary thank you?

I am asking sincerely and hope to learn more about DMS through the answers.

4 Likes
#11

From my perspective a class has an educational component that supports our educational purpose and therefore our non profit status. Until the last 18-24 months our non profit status was of questionable legitimacy because we performed so few educational activities in relation to our revenue.

The honorarium system has helped us grow from a few classes a week to dozens. Events, which may well be enjoyable by members do not support our non-profit purpose.

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#12

When did experimentation and testing theories lose their educational value? As a novice woodworker it would be extremely educational for me to see multiple types of joinery tested to the breaking point. As someone interested in learning and taking classes this would seem a worthy class.

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#13

Actually we are working on guidelines for auditors to use to determine what is a class vs. an event.

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#14

I’ve had multiple classes rejected. The others where clearly ‘classes’ and the one I mentioned above is a continuation of the practical project series and my cabinet making series. It makes no sense that one week is a class and the next is an event.

If you’re going to waste our time in splitting hairs and rejecting classes without even sighting a reason, then reasonable people will stop posting classes. The rejection could be valid, but the insults and the rudeness are offensive. the fact that it is done in secret is cowardly.

The ‘guiding principle’ at the space is suppose to ‘be excellent’, but when our leaders fail to follow that standard it makes us doubt…

#15

I have charged for classes, but the majority of the funds went to the pace and not to me.The pace has profited from my teaching. I am fine with using my honorarium to pay for materials, but I now have had multiple classes cancelled without even an explanation. Is it too much to get an explanation, and is it too much not to get insulted for posting. If this is your idea of ‘being excellent’, then you need to find a dictionary…

#16

Joe.

Hello. I am one of the Honorarium Auditors (HAs). I don’t speak for all of HAs, but I suspect there won’t be significant backlash in what I am about to say, either.

First, to address the obvious nonsense you attempted, you said “Here’s my ‘evil’ description”. The only issue being no one but you used the world “evil” to describe anything. Please try to present the situation more accurately/sensibly…it will help everyone understand the issues involved.

Your breakdown “for time and materials” is actually not material (he he…). You should hopefully realize that it doesn’t matter what you spent, time-wise or material-wise because…are you listening…the honorarium is just that, a nominal remuneration as opposed to a quid-pro-quo, i.e a “thank you”; It is not a compensation for time and materials. The point being you are thinking of this wrong, as your justification indicates…

You also wrote “I could provide information about my other classes which where [sic] rejected, but I think I’ve made my case.” In fact, your case is FAR from made. I think I have nixed one of your classes, that particular one being “How to make money at Makerspace”. In fact I can only find two classes of yours submitted for honorarium that have been rejected out of…10(?) in the few months you have been a member? Not sure as to the total # of classes you have submitted as the sort facility within the HA tool is somewhat wonky (read: doesn’t work at all…shocker!).

The thread title you chose (“Not good enough for honorarium - Milking the space for less than a”) says a lot. You appear to think you are entitled to decide — for yourself — what other DMS members’ dues should and shouldn’t be allocated or directed towards. But make no mistake: Honoraria are allocated out of membership dues. Maybe this will help: think taxes…is there anything your taxes are spent on that you would prefer they wouldn’t be? Do you think the recipients of such allocations of your taxes are, or can be objective as to the worthiness of the efforts for which they are receiving your taxes? I am pretty sure we all know the answer, since it is pretty much a universal “No”.

Additionally, if someone is having multiple classes rejected, it is probably for more than one reason. I rejected a class of yours noted not because I saw it as “milking” (another inflammatory word that only you used, once again misrepresenting another’s position to make it easier to attack or garner sympathy) but because I didn’t it think it fit with the ethos of the honorarium program here at DMS.

I hear reasonably often “I submit classes for honorarium, but it’s not about the money…I just want to teach and give back”. That’s Great! No one is required to request honorarium…classes can be submitted for no honorarium, or all honorarium can be directed towards the DMS committee of choice, which keeps the dues involved “in house” so to speak. This is absolutely not to say that no one should ask for the portion of honorarium that instructors are allowed to request; the program is there to provide a thank-you and incentive for just this purpose. But I’ll submit for general consideration: if you are submitting a class that you feel is a true benefit to the ‘Space and requesting honorarium (i.e other’s members’ dues), then, if your motivations are sincere, having honorarium rejected should not be that big of deal - just go ahead and teach the class anyway. That’s what I would do, anyway.

8 Likes
#17

My issue is that you reject without giving a reason, you where insulting, and didn’t have enough class to sign your name… You claim that this money is coming from the member’s dues, but many of the people are coming from the cabinet making classes where they have been paying $5 for each class. If you need to money so bad, you can keep it, but just save your rudeness for someone without a spine. I’ve watched the HAs run off two instructors and it’s about to be a third.

it seems like you would prefer to argue than to be concerned with education of the members.

All I’ve asked is for a little respect, and you have once again failed…

#18

Teach because you enjoy doing it man, if your penny pinching and crunching honorarium dollars, your doing it all for the wrong reasons to begin with. Teaching is giving back to the space because it allows you to gain knowledge at a very minimal fee, in return you share that knowledge to those that have an interest. I’ve taught a few classes my, I brought my own materials, and i probably spent more than what the honorarium paid out. However, the folks that did attend appreciated the time and the effort and that is fulfillment to teachers.

I think what everyone is getting at is, no one pulled your leg and forced you to share what you know, so entitlement should be null and void. If the space made money off of what you taught so what, those funds are sunk back into the tools that you use for 50.00 a month.

If your classes are being rejected find out why and follow the guidelines so they wont get rejected in the future, the auditors are in place for a reason and highly doubt they play favorites.

Share your knowledge or don’t, if you don’t your cheating yourself not the space if your a real teacher.

4 Likes
#19

Most of the classes I have taught, I have done without the honorarium. There have been several classes that I have spent more than I was going to get… that was my choice and I’m fine with that, but when I’m called out and refused without reason, and then lectured how I don’t deserve to recover some of my expenses and that my classes don’t have enough educational merit. I work hard on being prepared, having slides, and work to engage everyone. To have someone who has not ever attended any of my classes tell me that that suck pisses me off.

Your advise ‘to find out why they where rejected’ is also bogus because the rejection does not give a reason and/or the person that rejected it. Only my raising a fit have a found out who rejected and I still have not received a reason.

The money is not the issue… it’s the rudeness, secrecy, and lack of respect that pisses me off.

#20

Did you ask around to find out or did you just get mad?

You know the saying, “Be respectful to get respect”

We are all volunteers bro, not everything is done perfectly and correct. You can’t please everyone, so one person says what they want, but how many others benefitted from the classes you did give.

I mean YOU volunteered right? Volunteers may at some point and time be subjected to political BS, get over it and keep on teaching, they can’t reject everything, all your classes cant be crap. There’s no rule that says you can’t keep posting classes.

Bottom line is alot of folks said the Wright brothers idea was crap and rejected the idea of flying, didn’t stop them.

So if you love to teach don’t let petty BS stop you, keep teaching and contort to the system, that’s life 101 man.

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#21

confrontational none sense. bye.

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#22

Anywho, sounds like your a talented man so it’s your call whether or not you want to continue or let assumptive kindergarten hoorah kill your teaching buzz.

If you feel your not appreciated, go build something, draw you’re own following, people will ask about it. Throw out a poll see if there is interest, if yes then post for a class.

That’s what i’d do anyway…stirring up the chicken coop will be a waste of your time and effort.

2 Likes