You mean, “no major work” doesn’t cover that?
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I wonder if people that don’t do much car work are more susceptible to taking longer because they don’t know what they’re doing and therefore wouldn’t know if something is “major.”
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I think Dave’s idea has merit. It solves multiple problems in automotive (lift training etc), and engages members in a more orderly way (and gives you a chance to recruit them into your committee).
The proposed rule would require regular and frequent automotive committee meetings, or it is absolutely a barrier to new members using the shop. You’re required to hold one monthly, but will that be enough? No other committee requires a “length of membership” to use tools. This seems over-the-top to me, given that a better alternative is available (auto 101).
Also, do remember that our rules require that changing a rule requires a committee vote.
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Here is the hole in this logic.
I have been a member longer than 45 days. If I get delirious because I have a fever and decide to change my transmission. All who are following me into that bay are doomed to wait. FYI. I am not a mechanic.
Maybe some kind of queue or reservation might better handle the situation.
Meanwhile, I dislike freezing out new members. The 45 day rule does not address the fact that there are some great mechanics that join DMS and know their way around vehicles. Nor does it address the issue that a lousy mechanic is still a lousy mechanic at day 46.
It is an “easy” rule that does not necessarily resolve the issue.
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I think my first project at DMS was buying and subsequently fixing my Jeep.
It started off as a simple coolant leak, turned into a whole ordeal…
I can think of several other members who joined to work on cars, and immediately wanted to put their $50 to use. Members who you’ve never even noticed because they were able to get the work completed in no time at all. They cleaned the tools and put them back without anyone even knowing.
As an avid automotive committee member, I don’t support making rules for one person, and I do not support this rule as written.
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I don’t remember anyone suggesting that you can’t take on jobs that can reasonably be expected to be complete in 4 hours or less in your first 45 days. The vast majority of DIY auto work can be done in 4 hours or less. This isn’t going to block oil changes, brake jobs (if you have all your parts in advance like you should), shock replacement, AC repair, and the like.
The actual ask is that you have exposure to our culture and practices before tying up a bay for so long that several other jobs could have been done instead.
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The and there is why I ask, that’s all.
I like this idea. Sets reasonable expectations for what types of work should be attempted with the facilities available, that can be accomplished in relatively short order if things go well, while still allowing for planning and coordinating larger projects with more to go wrong. People may have very different ideas of what type of work is “major” or “may” take longer than 4 hours.
Like Zach and Tom, I also do the vast majority of my work at home. My tools, my music, my beer, my pace, and no drive from Allen to Carrollton eating into my first hour. Especially if the project has a large scale.
(That Mazda had its transmission replaced in my garage, which involved a very painful engine-out. The work at DMS was meant to just tighten down the last handful of items that were easier to get at with the car on a lift than on my back; we all remember how that went. I estimated I’d be out of there by beer-thirty, having shown up after noon. If it were a Honda, I would have been!)
No other committee seems to run into the issue of someone joining, immediately taking up half of the usable space in the committee area for a weekend, making a mess doing some project they were unqualified for, then ending their membership as soon as the job is done. I believe the “rental garage” point has already been brought up. A month-plus wait before you can try that stuff will deter some of that.
That said, it’s not a full-stop solution, as Diplomat mentions. Education is also needed. Leadership has suggested committee meeting attendance, but I do like the idea of a required training course, like Woodshop has for their basics. As I recall, that mandatory class is $5, and it goes over tool use, safety, cleanup, and project considerations. Applying the format to Auto would probably help this type of situation.
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The $5 was instituted to prevent members from signing up for multiple Wood Shop basic classes then deciding later which they’d attend. This blocked people that wanted to attend from enrolling and some classes not being filled when the person decided they’d attend another class. This small $5 fee greatly, if not pretty much eliminated no shows due to signing up for multiple classes. It has also been used for plasma cutter for the same reason.
Machine Shop has some $5 fees but they are related to materials fees to cover the cost of aluminum rod or bar stock provided to them.
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My point is a $5 class would probably sit better with some people than a $20 basics class as was previously proposed in this thread, while still reducing no-shows.
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The $20 is the standard Lift fee for training on the Lift.
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That it is, though I still think running a basics class as a $5 class would be better-received. The point being education, not deterrence from even working on auto projects. (Whereas the $20 lift fee goes toward maintenance, etc)
I mean, unless wear and tear on the normal tools is bad enough that we need to raise more funds anyway. I’m not really clued in on what condition most of the tools are in, since I usually bring my own basic tool set and only use specialty tools owned by the space.
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Classes taught by der Über Auto Ausschuss-führer will include the bonus indoctrination on the virtue of German cars accompanied Wagner’s inspiring Ride of the Valkyries
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Die deutschen Autos sind der wahre Gipfel der Ingenieurskunst!
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I don’t have all the facts about the white van or any other repair blocking a bay. I have assisted others, on their repairs. Could they have needed help? Stuff happens!!
Focus on safety & training, tracking usage, ect.
How many times has a new member joined, come in one weekend and took over any area of DM, ( Bay, Pottery wheel, Work tables, computers, 3D printer, ect), and then left next month? How many payed the 2nd month and came back? Having data is the only way to track changes.
Do we question new member about the area they would be using? What their skill level is in that area? Meet with chair or v-chair?
I am not at the space on weekends, but I would believe it can be problem in areas of greatest use.
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That’s why you put a test at the end of it. Or better yet lots of small tests along the way with a cumulative test at the end.
While I agree that nothing substitutes for hands-on learning, I think that viewing them as useful for online activities only is unfair. If what you’re teaching doesn’t require hands-on learning it can be very useful.
In this context, we’re talking about a 5-10 minute slideshow / PowerPoint which covers the basic rules of auto. Including 2-3 subtests and 1 test at the end of that slideshow would make the total time commitment 15-20 minutes, and prevent automotive from having to deal with a bunch of rules classes.
By having the new member take the tests, they’re forced to actually read and remember the pertinent rules.
I think we can point to 3D Printings’ success to show that even in some hands-on applications, online learning can and is useful.
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I can share my 2 cents here.
I’ve been a member since late last year. I joined for the laser cutters, but have been planning to begin some automotive work on my truck.
I took the lift class last week and plan to use it tomorrow for a few hours.
While I’m pretty confident in lift operation, I could definitely benefit from an ‘Automotive 101’ class. The community so far has been very helpful in answering questions that may pop up. I’d like to see what tools we have access to, where tools are supposed to go, where we can find supplies like towels or kitty litter, etc…
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An “auto 101” class is in the works
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A good reference as what would classify work that may exceed 4 hours would be to check out the reference times pro shops use to charge for labor.
Oil changes are supposed to be 15 mins IIRC,
Any work that’s being billed at 2 hours or more hours for a pro will likely take significantly more time and work for a non pro to do and should be considered as major work for a non pro.
Here’s an example of what should’ve been a “quick job” ending up taking much longer(apart from suchsojasco’s shattered knuckle):
When I changed out my steering rack, I took time off work and picked a slow day at DMS for it and started at about 1:30 PM or thereabouts and expecting to be done some time before dinner if there were no hitches.
The replacement part was a new meant-to-be direct fit aftermarket steering rack for my car.
It should have taken less than 3-4 hours but I ended up taking 14 hours including a couple of “step back and figure it out” breaks and dinner.
The task ended up requiring the exhaust from the collector back to be dropped (not an easy 1 person job but with a lift and the tools available at DMS doable).
Fixing a hard line clearance issue on new part (radius of bends were different, making overall dimensions unable to go thru the other bits, The fittings used were also different from OE; otherwise swapping the OE over would have saved quite a bit of time).
There were other minor incompatibility issues that took time to fix as well.
I drove out 3 AM and was away from the lift bay for the food ( about 30mins in DMS pantry ) and bathroom breaks only.
And, I’ve been working on cars for almost 30 years (just haven’t had to replace the rack on a car like this one before).
It boils down to if you want to work on your stuff in a common space, be aware that you’re not the only one who needs to use it or may want to use it and be considerate.
I’d like to say white van was an exception of people on the lift being inconsiderate but I’m not on site at DMS as often as I would like to know first hand.
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Gipfel I had to lookup.
Charge people $10 an hour for using the lift. Get first hour at no cost.