We want to continue using the Felder?
Not emptying it is the quickest way to kill it, so add horns and flashing lights IMO.
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It’s not the checking out that I object to; it’s the potential for gatekeeping, and limiting access to tools. It’s a trend that I am seeing in the makerspace and am not very sanguine about
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One could almost say that a tool being broken also limits access to said tool.
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The next episode for fun in the Woodshop
Here is what some people think cleaning up in the woodshop looks like
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I also enjoy the taste of sawdust in my drinks.
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And when you change a sawblade cause it was bent, you put it where everyone can see it!
if you have to replace a blade throw it away!
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Unless something has changed you might be out of luck. I believe it’s already been decided that even the hand tools will be RFID locked when woodshop moves to its new location and have the ability to do it.
I don’t see how it’s gatekeeping when the gate is more or less wide open. You have to go through the training course to use them but you should have to go through a training course to use stuff that can rip, cut, or crush appendages.
And once people stop using and breaking tools in, frankly, utterly stupid ways (seriously how the fuck do you bend the faceplate on a hand router?), maybe we can stop limiting access to them. But until then we have to try some way to be able to limit its use to people who have no idea how to use it or potentially be able to identify whodunnit so they can pay the committee for their mistake.
I think if there were an alarm on the dust collector, it’d be way more likely to get emptied appropriately. It doesn’t even need to shut everything down. Just a flashing light that says “hey, I’m getting full!” or something that works like a scale and indicates how full it’s getting (though I’m sure that’s less accurate.)
For people like me who aren’t in there often enough for it to be a habit but who would be more than willing to help, it’d be a nice.
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On the positive side. Someone went to the trouble of putting in an extension cord by the Jet Lathes so we could have outlets for fans and lights. Very thoughtful! (I would have included a picture but the one I took was blury).
If it was just the cord and not hung up, the Fire Marshal probably wouldn’t like it as saw dust can get into it. If something pluged in, then OK.
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Mike asked me to share the following: On Monday I was working in the Woodshop and saw three “incidents” in a two hour period that involved damage to DMS property:
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Someone used a downcut bit to drill holes with the Multicam. A fire started on one of the vacuum air return boards. (see part of the board on the wall next to the Multicam),
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Someone started sharpening a bowl gouge at a 90 degree angle (proper angle is 45). It ruins the tool. The repair will use up 10-to 20% of the useful part of the tool. I shutter to think what would have happened if someone used a bowl gouge sharpened to 90 degrees instead of the proper 45.
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Someone was cutting off the right 2” of a 12" log on the Laguna bandsaw with out securing the log properly with a sled (which is right next to the bandsaw). The log was able to rock back and forth on the bed. When the blade was in the wood, it rolled the log (as it was not firmly secured). The machine seized and the blade was bent. The person stood there stunned. And had to be told to turn off the machine off.
Yes, three incidents in two hours is a statistical fluke, but it got me thinking. I noticed some common themes in all three incidents:
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Each person had good intentions, none intended to damage machines or tools
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As best as I could tell, each person was responsive to feedback on what led to the damage and were eager to learn how to do things right. Always a good sign.
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Each person was in over their heads, they really did not understand the machines/tools they were using. They did not know the implications of what they were doing. If they did they clearly would not have done what they did.
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My sense was that each person had training (although I do not know for sure). One of the three machines had an RFID lockout, so we know at least one person had training. I’ll assume that all three had Woodshop classes and were allowed to be in the wood shop. If not then that is a separate problem.
How do you teach/train people to think through the implications of their actions? How do we teach/train people to know when they are in over their heads? It’s really tough to know what you don’t know (else you would know it).
After thinking about this, I don’t have a good answer to solve this problem.
Teaching every way a machine can be used or teaching everything that can go wrong with every machine would result in a 1000+ hour long class. And even if you did, no one would remember a 1000 hours of training anyway.
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The price of a destroyed quality tool is greater than a one that is merely acceptable . And while better quality generally correlates to more abuse tolerance, it doesn’t tend to contribute to lower total cost of ownership since any added margin for abuse is generally a tiny fraction of the immensely greater cost.
I have watched the parade of Festools being sent back to be repaired, and I don’t think your price analysis considers everything. For example, the Kaypex - sliding compound miter saw, has gone back 4 times to be repaired, and Festool has yet to charge us a dime because of their robust warranty. This, despite the fact that the saw has clearly been abused. Contrast this with the Bosch saw that was the Kaypex predecessor. After one replacement, Home Depot said “No more.” By your pricing examples above, that means that we are now at a push between price of Kaypex or replacing it with a number of Bosch saws.
All that said, I am saddened by the lack of care and outright abuse I see for wonderful tools in an incredible space. And this abuse is why we can’t have nice things.
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As well it would be worth considering the cost of downtime…
EDIT
I’m in agreement that Festool is not for our makers. It might be great for people who care about their tools but that is currently not the case here.
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To be honest, our current approach just doesn’t work with the amount of inexperienced users we have. The way that woodworkers, welders, finish carpenters, luthiers, blacksmiths, and all other skilled trades worked in the past was by apprenticeship.
In my own case, how did I learn how to use a lathe? My father-in-law taught me how to make pens.
I had woodshop in middle school, and then “old timers” to teach me new techniques and new tools along the way.
How did I learn how to use a MIG/TIG welder? I was an apprentice at a welding shop that I started out sweeping the floors and cleaning up the projects as they went out the door. I worked in a professional welding environment with layout of flat metal all the way through fabrication, and installation. I still wouldn’t call myself a welder.
The short answer is that it takes time, mentorship, and a willingness to learn from the apprentice. I can tell you many times where if one of the old timers thought you weren’t taking a lesson very seriously, or you weren’t doing what you’re supposed to, you would be relegated to making a billion table legs until you figure things out.
So the short answer is, we either need to perform more training or accept the risk that tools and property will be abused/damaged.
If we really wanted to turn things up a notch in the woodshop, we would make a new member either demonstrate an ability to use the tools or go through the woodshop basics classes. Then they would be assigned a sponsor/mentor. The new member would need to work out a date/time to work with their sponsor on a project where the mentor’s job is to only answer questions, demonstrate tasks safely, or step in when something is unsafe. When the new member is signed off by the mentor, they’re left to work on their projects on their own.
Everything we do now is a reflection of a lack of training, care, and penalties.
I don’t think that I’m perfect around the space in any shape, form or fashion. I’ve had work pieces get away from me, cut into the spoil board, etc. I’d like to think that I spoke with someone knowledgeable in that area to see what I could have done differently. For example, I had a piece of .500" 6061 aluminum round bar chucked up in the Colchester lathe. I thought the piece was straight, however when it spun up, it bent and started banging the table next to the lathe and had to hit the e-stop. David K was nice enough to suggest I should have put a support on the table to keep the stock from wobbling. I didn’t think it was going to be a problem, however an experienced machinist would have giggled as I reached over to start the lathe up.
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How do you teach/train people to think through the implications of their actions? How do we teach/train people to know when they are in over their heads? It’s really tough to know what you don’t know (else you would know it).
So here are a couple of suggestions in no particular order.
Training and retraining if you haven’t been in shop in X months
I understand that a number of members have heartburn with a 4 part basic woodworking class. I grew up around a woodshop, and have one at home, and I don’t think the 4 class curriculum is enough for much more than not cutting your fingers off. Now we have some people who come in as experienced woodworkers, and may not need 4 classes, but just watching YouTube videos does not make you an experienced woodworker. I see some inflated opinions about one’s level of expertise, combined with some disregard for the life of our tools. It is not possible to teach everything, nor absorb everything, in an single session, particularly if one is a beginner.
RFID is a must on more tools. The thing that most frustrates me is that, with the exception of the Multicam problem, I believe all of the damage pictured was just done and left by a member(s). I don’t think that committee heads, board members or anyone else should have to spend their lives reviewing video footage because someone wouldn’t own up to their mistake. RFID could provide some accountablity, and time frame. There are limits to volunteering, already.
And if you break something and don’t own up, maybe you should be asked to take a break from the space…
Moreover, a learning opportunity is continually missed. Someone has smashed that KayPex up FOUR TIMES in the same manner. It would really be nice to know what happened, so the training could address it and maybe stop the carnage.
Project classes teach skills in a controlled environment I suspect that the honorarium kerfuffle somehow gave these classes a bad name, but project classes allow for coaching and skill growth in a controlled environment. There are a number of ways to cut a board using various tools, which is best for my application? Project classes allow this kind of learning and IMHO will give members an opportunity to practice skills and get feedback and coaching real time.
More classes in general I have not seen classes on the scroll saw or the Domino for example.
Disabuse the notion that cleaning up after one’s self is volunteering Cleaning up after yourself is good manners. It is not volunteering.
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Project classes are awesome!
E.G. I’m enjoying learning about the lathe. I’m almost comfortable enough to do my own project, but I won’t do it unless I’ve got backup in the building.
There are so many things I learn with each class.
And YouTube videos are not that same as someone with experience suggesting your tool might need to be sharpened.
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This trashcan is particularly troublesome for our nighttime vampire cleanup crew. They’re very expensive to replace so lets take better care of trashcans.
And I do want to thank the folks who continue to throw away usable chunks of nice hardwood, my wallet appreciates you.
Leaving tools out is thirsty work!
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I picked up some sirens for our old dust collectors that were so insanely obnoxious that they finally got disconnected.
Whether noise or light, I do think some sort of indicator would be helpful. I rarely go in woodshop, but if there were some sort of indicator besides looking I wouldnt mind. I mostly only cut a board or two or maybe turn a couple pen, like something maybe every 3 months.
the only thing with the extra training is that I feel like our members don’t want anymore expensive woodshop classes and I doubt we have enough people interested enough to cover them. Usually if I am unfamiliar with something I will find someone to supervise me.