DISCUSS Laser NO GO Material #3: ABS

Taking @Photomancer’s advice and breaking out each of the Hateful Eight No Go materials into its own thread. Less for me to moderate. Off the top of my head…@pinewoodnut, @talkers, @tomthm, @motopilot, @PearceDunlap, @merissa, @JoshW, @gbeauw, @somecallmery, @bpamplin, @BLOOM, @Kati .

https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Laser_Cutter_Materials

Material: “ABS”
Danger!: “Emits cyanide gas and tends to melt”
Cause/Consequence: “ABS does not cut well in a laser cutter. It tends to melt rather than vaporize, and has a higher chance of catching on fire and leaving behind melted gooey deposits on the vector cutting grid. It also does not engrave well (again, tends to melt). (3D printed objects are often ABS)”

EDIT: Click “like” if original wording is still OK.

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It is on our banned list until it is not on our banned list.

Keeping that in mind, as this is a discussion thread:

And this reddit thread below has users POVs.

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And small…

Repeated or chronic exposures have resulted in hypothyroidism.

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@Team_Science Can you help with HCN detection?

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Two different MSDS’s I’ve come across for searching for “ABS sheet MSDS” (one) (two) have varying assessments of the fire risk.

One :

5.1 Suitable extinguishing media: Water mist, dry chemical, carbon dioxide, or appropriate foam.

5.2 Extinguishing media which must not be used for safety reasons: -

5.3 Special exposure hazards arising from the substance or preparation itself, combustion products, resulting gases: During a fire, combustion products including but not limited to Carbon monoxide, Carbon dioxide, Hydrogen Cyanide, Styrene, Ethylbenzene and Acrylonitrile may be emitted.

5.4 Special protective equipment for fire-fighters: Use self-contained breathing apparatus. Use water spray to keep fire-exposed containers cool. Dust is not expected to be generated in the event of a fire.

Two (frustratingly not in actual text format; removed some of the pagination and redundant headings) :
image

Suspect that there are many many varieties of ABS likely to be cut in the laser, some with specific formulations, colors, coatings, whatnot that will have other considerations.

The firefighting hazards are likely specific to large quantities of the stuff going up, such as a factory, warehouse, or shipping container full. The relevance to a laser cutter will probably depend on what concentrations that small quantities of the unwanted byproducts being generated and the over/under on those compounds being released into the workshop under best/worst-case scenarios.

The effect on the lasers themselves bears consideration. What effect do these compounds have on the optics, grate, belts, etc? What’s the cleanup like if someone doesn’t adjust their cuts towards ABS seeming to prefer multiple fast low-power passes and leaves melted plastic behind?

I’m no materials scientist, nor have any vested interest in cutting ABS, however if we are constantly melting ABS in 3D fab, how would the laser be different? The laser has a much better vent system than polyprinters. Would suggest a sacrificial board so doesn’t gum up grate though.

Melting and burning are probably different.

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I readily welcome one or more DMS members present their proposed test methodology, tools and related controls to perform said test(s) to the Laser Committee for the purposes of developing a knowledge base around possible ABS usage with Lasers.

Provided the test conditions and findings/results were consistent and repeatable across a range of ABS products, and deemed to be within generally acceptable safe tolerances, I would then be open to subsequently bringing the topic up to the Laser Committee and then the DMS Board for consideration.

My views, however, do not speak for the current Laser Chair and I recognize the Chair’s prerogative to summarily decline said approach, in keeping with the authority and governing privileges of the position.

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I wouldn’t say fine to cut. It cuts, it melts a bit, it needs careful watching. It stinks. Let it vent a bit.

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Our next Laser Committee meeting is Sunday August 5 @ 11:00am. Could you attend and present the propsal and related device purchase request? This is exactly the type of thing the Committee should be engaged on.

Here’s a bit more that might help – We don’t do this at ATXHS ( cost prohibitive for us ) but it’s something you could do there at Dallas Makerspace to make sure you’re not exhausting HCN into the atmosphere.

Activated carbon will absorb HCN, and will also prevent the formation of NO which is a major component of smog and a precursor of nitric acid.

Even though my experiment resulted in a measurement that was lower than the OSHA max exposure limit, it has been categorically determined that constant chronic cyanide exposure is linked to demyelination, lesions of the optic nerve, ataxia, hypertonia, Leber’s optic atrophy, goiters and depressed thyroid function. The legal limit is 10 ppm, OSHA reccomendation is 4.7 ppm. Acute exposure is considered to be 20-40 ppm, regular chronic exposure is anywhere up to 4.7 ppm.

So, even low levels can be bad for your health-wise… long term. It’s bad to exhaust that stuff w/o doing some kind of remediation if possible.

If you use a meter to measure HCN, make sure it’s calibrated! It should come with a calibration sticker and/or paper. If it’s used, make sure it was recently calibrated against reference samples. I was able to borrow the one I used from UT Austin department of chemistry.

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It is my opinion at this time ABS stays on the no go list. We are a most unique organization and not all makers are made the same or have the care and attention to details as others when in doubt dont. These are shared expensive tools to replace and maintain.
I order custom abs boxes for work and they are milled not lasered.
Perhaps it best to look into using a different tool or building one that is safe for even a novice maker.
There are more variables to consider then just HCN its material behavior flamability, mess and clean up as well.

At the very least it would require a special class and approval to use but then how do we as a large organization keep checks and balances on material and user ability.

In summary I think ABS is just to dangerous of a matterial to cut or raster at our shared space of greatness.

It may be safe under certain conditions but to many variables and user lead to fast accidents.

I would be happy to work on a team to build an ABS approved Cnc type milling machine.

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I would be inclined to keep it on the no-go list due to:

  • Smell - the odor is strong, and tends to linger, even with ventilation
  • Poor cut quality - it melts instead of vaporizing. It’s difficult to get a usable edge
  • Buildup - The goop that lasercutting ABS leaves on the cutting-bed can ignite and scorch otherwise safe materials. This can also result in re-depositing ABS onto other materials. I wouldn’t want ABS goop on my wood cuts.
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This is the real reason to keep it on the banned list. Lots of stuff online saying “it’s fine in limited use” but those posts are intended for home/hobby users who will be dealing with their own messes, or production shops that have paid staff to maintain their equipment. Eventually DMS will get someone do a production run of a bunch of ABS something-or-others that will completely trash one of the Thunders and then they’ll walk away leaving the mess for Team Laser to fix for them.

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Very good points, and definitely topics and considerations for the Laser Committee to weigh in on at the Aug. 5 meeting.

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