Asking for, and offering... HELP

Woodshop
#1

After a 2 year hiatus, I’m so happy to be back making things! I’d like to extend my appreciation to everyone who has responded to my requests to help get machines unstuck, track down accessories, or figure out why my fob won’t work. Thank you!

HOWEVER…
I’m starting to get very annoyed by UNSOLICITED ADVICE. A couple of times a day, a random man (sorry, it’s NEVER a woman) will come up to me in the woodshop and tell me what I’m doing wrong. It’s condescending, patronizing and irritating.

I have actually procrastinated coming to DMS, because I’m tired of being bothered every day. It’s starting to affect my work (I’m being interrupted and distracted) and it’s definitely affecting my mood. I just want to work on my projects–I don’t want to be lectured and instructed. If I need help I will ask. If you ask me, “Would you like help?” I will give you an honest answer.

I recognize that nobody is doing this out of malice, and it’s coming from a place of kindness and desire to help. I get it. I am at best an amateur woodworker, perhaps intermediate, and I know there’s a lot I still can learn. That’s why I hold my tongue when some fella takes the wood right out of my hands and starts with the “Let me show you how to do this…” I’m losing my patience and I would like to be left alone, just like everyone else.

PLEASE STOP MANSPLAINING.

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#2

These dudes assume that they’re being helpful. I would not let them take the wood out of my hands. There’s always the chance that they don’t know WTF you’re trying to do, and that they’ll actually muck your project up. Plus, if you start resisting, it might slow one or two of them down. So that they’ll give you the COURTESY of explaining and thereby helping you understand what they ass-u-me they know so much better than you.

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#3

I’m sorry this is happening. DMS is supposed to be a place you can learn at your own pace and make your own mistakes, too. The only exception should be if someone believes that there is a safety issue or you are violating makerspace rules. Then we are asked to speak up. We don’t want anyone hurt. This should never require them to take anything from you.

I agree with Beth just tell them to please let you work and leave you alone that you do not require their assitance.

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#4

It’s nice to get a reminder that everyone sees things differently… I am pretty sure that I was one of the guys who was trying to help that night. My intention was only to look out for your safety. You were making some cuts very similar to the accident that happened a few months back…

The piece was a little small and your hand was a little too close [and the other accident a little too fresh] - I would have felt a little less concern [right or wrong] if you were on the StopSaw.

The other issue that I heard was making cross cuts with the fence instead of using a miter gauge or crosscut sled. I didn’t see it, but I think that was the concern.

I am sorry if the advice/concern came off as mansplaning, I know that wasn’t the intention in my case [or the other]. I don’t doubt your ability, you were doing really nice work - I was just concerned about the process.

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#5

It’s a delicate situation, as women live their entire lives being mansplained to, and generally discounted and classified as secondary to men. That experience must be maddening. And yet, in Woodshop, offers for guidance need to be weighed with safety, and the real value that many experienced woodworkers provide when they offer help. I rarely see condescension voiced by experienced woodworkers (though it does happen), rather they just want to help newbies like me stay safe and not damage the equipment, and even help improve my woodworking skills. Open, polite and friendly two-way communication is probably the only good approach for this dynamic.

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#6

I apologize I have been neglectful of this thread. I apologize that when we went through the table saw portion of the class I must’ve missed that part that covered sleds besides telling us that they were “over there.” I have never nor will I ever claim to be an expert. There were many things I learned that day of which I had no idea about. Some of which I now know was just flat wrong. I went during a time when more people were present rather than my usual late night hours just so that if I was misusing something I could be slapped silly. I sincerely appreciate your help. I’m not sure what I misremembered but I’m absolutely always willing and eager to learn. Unfortunately I have a tendency to learn things the hard way.

#7

I also wanted to add that I did not find anyone’s comment as mansplaining. I very much would like to know what exactly what I did wrong so that the experience is not repeated. It was definitely unpleasant. However, it would have been nice for someone to reach out to me if they knew what happened and let me know this. I was unaware someone had a beef and/or explanation. Gossip, rudeness, and condescension have no place in a community.

#8

I was offered help and thought I had listened. I will never flat out ignore a safety tip. When it happened I was tired and frustrated and I learned my lesson on that as well.

#9

I definitely keep an eye out for unsafe activities anywhere in the building, the tablesaws and chopsaws are very unforgiving, especially the powermatic. Ideally that should require some experience to use.

#10

Ah. I didn’t realize that safety was involved. Personally, I’m still grumpy about the guy who cracked one of the left-hand-thread lugs off of my 1964 Barracuda. Back in the '80’s.

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#11

oh my gosh, so I’ve never actually had anyone take the wood or acrylic out of my hands before, I’d be livid! But I have definitely felt like I’m being watched while in there. Like certain people are just hawk-eyeing hoping for an opportunity to either tell me I’m doing something wrong or do what you’re saying and offer unsolicited advice. I admit that /could/ be a misperception, but hearing another have the same issue makes me think maybe not. It’s annoying to say the least, and makes me reluctant to work in there sometimes if I don’t want to deal with it. In general I’ve never felt like that anywhere else in DMS, aside from once when I took a metalshop class.

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#12

Well, actually I do understand why they’d be watching you. While they may be hoping that they could share their expertise, there are So Many folks that do unsafe things, watching people you don’t recognize in hopes of stopping an accident makes some sense. Probably the same for Metal Shop.

I know I’m going to shadow a Woodshop Basics course before I do something in there. I took it a couple of years ago, but I didn’t do anything, so I definitely need a refresher before I touch any of that stuff.

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#13

I’ve seen unsafe things on the table saws that Im sure we cover in classes like:

Ripping a board halfway, letting go of the board while the blade is powered and buried in the part, and picking up a push stick to finish the cut. Could have easily thrown the part back towards the operator.

Crosscutting a narrow piece against the fence, can easily jam and throw the part and pull the operators hand into the blade

Setting up to square a cutting board with the jagged edge against the fence and one of the pieces long enough that it would hit the leading edge of the fence, preventing the operator from completing the cut, so you have to shut down the saw while holding the piece.

Ripping a narrow strip trapped between the blade and fence without a push stick, can easily throw the waste piece like a missle back at the operator or anyone standing behind them.

Hands or fingers way too close to the blade

Only one of these involved a male.
And the time between when I realize they are actually going to proceed with the unsafe operation and when it’s too late to stop can sometimes be a few seconds, so i probably didn’t take the time to introduce myself.

If I see something that could end up bad while its still safe to distract the operator I will definitely say something. If they are in the middle of a cut all I can do is hold my breath and talk to them after the cut.

We could consider getting red or green wristbands
Red means I don’t want to talk to anybody, leave me alone
Green means I like to chat, and im open to getting advice

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#14

Eh, the metal shop thing was a pre-covid. In a class making metal flowers and someone kept coming in and pretending to do stuff near the group. Eventually there was a shouting/loud argument between the teacher and the person in front of the other woman in the class and me (everyone else was out in the work area). It was just incredibly uncomfortable all around.

I guess the issue is, there are already not enough women working in some areas in the space and it doesn’t surprise me that often those that do feel uncomfortable when they feel watched. Obviously we haven’t exactly done a survey here, so this is just a small number of anecdotal stories so maybe woman as a whole don’t actually experience this. It may be that someone is watching them for safety issues, but side-eying or staring at women (or anyone really) just comes off as kinda creepy even if the intent is altruistic (and incidentally is distracting). I’m not sure what the solution is though. I get that lots of people are very amateur in there. And those things are certainly concerns.

Perhaps woodshop experts who are open to questions and being interrupted in what they are doing should have a badge. I do know in the past when I /have/ had a question, it’s always a complete guess on who to ask. And asking on talk takes way too long if you’re up at the space currently working on a project.

I’m not sure red or green wristbands would prevent individuals (mostly woman I’d guess) from the feeling of being watched even if they did have a red wrist band on.

In the end, I don’t use the woodshop very often since project storage got shut down anyway since I only have a sedan, so perhaps the atmosphere has gotten better. shrug This may just be a non-issue but I figured I’d chime in corroborating the OPs experience.

#15

I used to spend a LOT of time in the Woodshop and I saw plenty of males doing things that could or did damage their material, the equipment and/or themselves. It’s not a gender thing, it’s an experience thing. Through no fault of anybody in particular, segments of the population get no real tool experience before venturing into a place like DMS. My limited observation was that the males mostly came in two versions: those who knew they were close to clueless and those who assumed they knew all they needed to know. The former were receptive to suggestions and the latter were resentful asshats. The regulars offered suggestions to those in the clueless category. Anything said to the know-it-all folks was louder, pointed, and much less forgiving. More than a few were told to either stop or leave.

The OP is not clueless, but not an expert. There are two times that a person is in most danger working with injury potential situations: when new and when experienced enough to lapse into complacency.

I understand and accept that mansplaining is real and a problem. I also understand the need for keeping a eye on an infrequent worker and the complacent worker in order to protect them and the equipment. I doubt there is a balance that works for everyone’s comfort level.

All that said … No one “makes” you feel anything. You are in charge of your response to any situation. Develop the ability to be response-able.

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#16

:point_up: 100% THIS!

#17

Yes and no. The vast majority of women have learned to be wary of men. And that’s why it’s concerning if we’re being watched. But then, that’s one of the reasons that I don’t “girl up” at all. I’m pretty sure if you’re watching me, it’s about my safety level (or, perhaps, looking for the opportunity to mansplain) rather than anything creepy.

And, to be clear, I am not accusing any of you of mansplaining. Or specifically trying to be creepy.

#18

I’m not entirely sure how you intended the OP or myself to take this if you mean this towards us and not rlisbone, but while I agree with you on controlling response to a point, if the OP is actually getting bothered multiple times a woodshop session with unsolicited advice and people actually touching her or her things (in a non-safety related situation) then I’m not sure I agree that it would be on her to control her reaction and not get frustrated and post about it here to bring awareness to the issue.

Apologies if I misconstrued the intent behind this statement.

haha this might be the truest statement about any part of makerspace :rofl:

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#19

I mean, this is sort of a societal problem in and of itself. No one should have to worry about whether they are or are not ‘girled up’ as it relates to unwanted attention at the space. I mean, sure, big gold hoops or dangly necklaces are a bad idea for safety reasons, but you should be able to wear what you want without having to consider the whole ‘why is that dude watching me’. Granted, I certainly don’t want men to feel uncomfortable talking to or asking a question from a lady at the space. That wouldn’t be pleasant either. I suppose it’s all social awareness and cues.

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#20

How about: “I have my earbuds in, I am listening to music, not you”

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