I have created a thread with the core of my idea, but upon further reflection I think tapping into the creativity of this group would be a great way to go.
I propose that this be more of a contest then the previous shows, with the idea being to select the ‘best’ posters for permanent hanging throughout the space. We can combine the art show/contest idea with the creation of sign age that we obviously really need at the space.
Here is @Brandon_Green improvement upon my original concept poster, which I like even more
Personally, I like the idea of WWII style propaganda posters, but the whole point of this contest would be to get a wide variety of ideas we could choose from.
First, find a PRIZE!!! The better the prize the more likely you are to have a larger entry pool.
Second, set limitations to signage that could be reproduced easily like vinyl cut signage or possibly router cut signage.
Third, get helpers to produce signs. Gather people that know how to use the router and vinyl cutter and get them to help produce the signs. This would most likely require payment / bribes (code for food). Also, provide materials for signs.
These are just suggestions, I’m not claiming these must be done. They may just make the competition better.
Personally, I think the prize need be nothing more then your work is selected by the judges (or however the organizer chooses) to be a permanent addition to the space. We are a volunteer run organization and I don’t really see this as being any different, beyond combining Nicole’s art show concept with a way of generating something the space desperately needs.
Based on the competitions, sometimes recognition is enough of a prize. But, being a permanent addition to the space isn’t much of a prize as any member can already stick a sign anywhere at DMS and be a permanent addition already, no need to enter the contest.
I was hoping that you were going to organize this Walter. It is your idea and you are active enough, I think you could do it. Take those reigns, you have my support, I’m sure you would gather more with this idea. Plus, you could make a big difference in the space.
Nick, if recognition isn’t enough and we collectively decide this is an issue worth spending money on, I would rather see that money being spent soliticing professional firms to supply the posters. If we did that members could of course provide a response; however, when you pay for something you want the most cost effective and ‘best’ you can afford. That will not necessarily be something you get if you offer a ‘prize’ where you only get the best of what is submitted.
While I am passionate enough to take the lead on this issue, the art shows are Nicoles’ @uglyknees baby. Which is why I am only suggesting this. I am willing to help her in any capacity she would like on this. I am not however, what I consider to be a good judge of art work. My tastes are pedestrian. I like the ‘pretty’ art… I have also already stated that my preference in this area is 1940’s propaganda style posters. But the reason I would like such a contest is the likelihood that we would see a wide range of styles that could help a diverse member group get the message.
Once again creative effort has been considered worthless. Thanks. I’m
guessing that there was never a question that the raw materials for these
signs would be an actual expense. when you presume that “recognition”
should be enough you cheapen the work of creative professionals.</end rant>
Are you suggesting that all members who donate their time to improve the makerspace should be paid, or that those efforts to improve the space are considered equally worthless? Or is there a history of cash awards to exceptional contributions that I have missed?
I’m not denying the tendency of the public at large to create that feeling, but it feels like you expect creative work to somehow be placed above the rest of the contributions to makerspace, and at first glance, it feels rather unexcellent.
It might be that there is a looong history (not at the DMS, just in the general world) where it is a common thing for companies or individuals to solicit creative works (special effects, graphic design, poems, paintings, video editing, etc) for a for-profit event or retail item, and the recompense for such work is “exposure” or “experience”. For many (if not most) of us who do creative work, we’re frankly rather tired of being expected to not value our work as highly as someone who does accounting, dentistry, personal training, etc etc etc.
I’m not saying that is the case here, just thinking it’s something of a reflexive knee jerk reaction to suggestions that “you should just do it for free…”
I’m not suggesting that all members who donate their time should be paid.
There are lots of DMS members who frequently donate their time, money and
expertise with no expectation of compensation and I am happily one of those
persons. However, I would stop short of presuming that others would be
expected to help me with a project for free or worse, try to put on some
sort of Tom Sawyer-esque spin on it to con people into helping. I mean,
think about it for a second. You’re hoping that several people will all put
in real time designing a poster so that one design gets used and even then
no compensation beyond a slap on the back. How excellent is it to waste
that many people’s time? Would you do the same thing to get a piece of wood
cut? “Hey you ten people you should all cut this board for me so I can then
pick out the straightest cut! That person will get a high-five and everyone
else? Screw you. Better luck next time.”
I don’t get how this thread got where it is. AFAICT, Walter was just wanting to get some participation in making some signs. Honestly, I am fine just using his, and AFAICT his whole point for making it a competition was giving other ideas a shot. I don’t think his goal was exploiting creative types etc.
On something like this, if it’s not fun to you and feels too much like work, then just ignore it. Most of us have day jobs and we don’t want to necessarily do the things we do 40+ hours a week for “volunteer” work.
This was most definitely not what I said or what I implied. Indeed I wouldn’t be suggesting permanent hanging of such posters if I thought they were ‘worthless’.
As Kent has said everything that gets done at the space is accomplished by volunteers. If we paid what all of these services are worth, nothing would happen without a large increase in membership fees.
Thanks Kent, yes that was the idea. We have a problem with people cleaning up after themselves. In my opinion a variety of signage will help the message get through more effectively the a repeating of a single sign.
Also, it wasn’t really my sign. I started with a piece posted by @frank_lima modified the text and posted the file as a starting point. @Brandon_Green made some excellent changes and that was the second draft. I then made it two color per your suggestion.
I was thinking of this one concept mostly as a kick off to illustrate what we need, but get ideas from people to find posters that speak to our members.
I was hoping to get multiple designs to put on our walls, not a single design. And the only reason for the contest would be because I would expect us to have more creative ideas then we have space to hang them.
I also didn’t want a prize because I don’t think it is excellent to compensate some people for their efforts and not others. And we most definitely can’t afford to pay for all of the services members provide the space.
My suggestions where not there to hamper your competition, but to attract the kind of High Quality entries that Walter was wanting and have them be reproducible within the space. These suggestion where made because the suggested “Art Show” was really a come do free design work for DMS challenge. The other shows at DMS have been an opportunity to show your art, but you still owned it. Thus, you didn’t lose it’s real world value. This show would pick the nicest piece of art and just keep it without financial compensation.
This is an issue. We are professionals here that you are soliciting. Also, being a professional is not required to do work worth more than the materials in it.
Also, DMS has spent money on creative endeavors. They have paid for signage, videos, custom furniture, and other projects. So a new precedent isn’t needed here.
So again, not saying that what I suggested has to be done, Just that I think the suggestion would probably get you a out come closer to what you are wanting.
All of the work our volunteers provide have a real world value, not simply creative design. Personally, I have hired graphic artists and graphic art companies in my career and have a good grasp of the monetary value of the work. Which is why I mentioned that if we are talking about paying for this material I would prefer to see us treat it as a commercial enterprise where we released a request for proposals and select from that. Such a RFP would be opened to any company in the area that chose to respond, not simply members.
But again, I think there is a real problem with the precedent of paying SOME members for their services and not others. This entire group runs off of volunteer labor that we simply can not afford to pay for.
Also, if you personally were not willing to donate your poster concept for permanent use at the space, then no one would be forcing you to participate. Any more then anyone at the space is forced to perform any volunteer work.
Finally, While we haven’t actually created any rules for such a hypothetical contest I wouldn’t expect the terms to include a reliquisment of your copyright or provide the space with an unlimited ability to reproduce your work. I was thinking a single submitted piece would be permanently hung in one of the places it was needed in the space. And that multiple individual designs would be used to populate the space. All ownership of the concepts and designs would remain with the originator. But one specific implementation would be donated to the space.
I’m sorry to keep hammering on this and promise that I’m A: not picking on
anyone and B: not going to rant any more on this issue after this final
clarification of the point I’m trying to take.
This has nothing to do with suggesting that anyone be paid. At all. It’s
about the dignity of the situation.
There is a culture or established attitude about creative work that is
perpetuated by “contests” and the like. It’s a back-handed way of
soliciting help. If you need help designing a poster then just ask for it.
You wouldn’t hold an audition to have shelves built, you wouldn’t hold a
race to pick up supplies from the store. You’d just look for someone that
could do it and ask for help. This has nothing to do with suggesting that
anyone needs to be paid for anything, you’re missing that point completely.
It’s ALL about trying to solicit a bunch of people to do the same work so
that you can cherry pick the best results COMBINED with artificial
“compensation” it’s THAT part that suggests that creative work is lesser
work. Would you ask 8 people to build tables so you could actually use the
best 4?
I really am sorry, I was too harsh in my original statement. I’m really not
trying to paint anyone as evil. I do understand that your intentions are
pure. It’s just that as Nick and others have said, this kind of thing comes
up ALL the time in the creative world and it can be a daily battle. I have
no problem donating my time and effort. I do it all the time. I (and I
think others) would simply appreciate the greater dignity of being directly
asked to help rather than being gamed into it via a “contest”.
Again, I’m really sorry for ruffling feathers and that’s the last I have to
say on the matter.
Let me start by saying I didn’t take any offence or feel you were targeting me personally. It seemed clear from your post that my thread had unintentionally triggered one of your ‘hot button’ issues.
While I understand your feelings here, for instance as a amateur photographer I am well aware of ‘contests’ that are created solely to obtain quality photographs for commercial purposes at little to no cost.
That said, it is normal in a wide variety of businesses for a person/company to be expected to submit their concepts/plans as a proposal for a job/award. They don’t loose their copyright or other intellectual property in these, but such request for proposals do require a lot of effort to put together and more times then not you don’t win the work, hence all of the effort in preparing those proposals earned you nothing.
In my field, a branch of engineering, this is the norm. On large jobs I may spend $40-$50k preparing proposals. And a good ‘win’ rate for these in 1 in 5… That is a lot of money to risk, but it is the nature of the business.
Much of what makes ‘creative’ types so susceptible to being abused by such a system is that it is nearly always possible to find someone who will produce an acceptable piece of work for very little money.
As to you table analogy, we actually did something very similar not too long ago, where @AlexRhodes and @frank_lima had two very different concepts for how to produce work tables for the shop. A winner was declared. Now the difference is we paid for the MATERIALS for both tables, and are keeping both, but it seems future tables will be based upon only one of those designs. Also we paid for those materials since they cost hundreds of dollars versus what I expect would only be a few dollars (certainly less the $20) for a single poster.
I also don’t see asking people to submit a single physical poster for consideration to use at the space for a purpose we should all want solved is any different from asking people to volunteer to do any of the hundreds of tasks we need done to keep this place working.
Again the idea about the contest with a selection was only because I would expect with the creativity of 900+ members that we would have more concepts submitted then we have space to hang such signs. It wasn’t a means to obtain the ‘cream’ and generate free labor. At least anymore then any of the group efforts to keep this place operating are dependent upon ‘free’ labor.
Whew! Ok I just read all that give me a second
Can we change the art show - I’m going to go with an art dictator roar of -nope. Now @wandrson you know I love you, I value your opinions and I realize your value to this space and it’s not about the concept or this discussion at all. Simply put I REALLY want to do the 10X10 show for the “grand opening” “grand celebration” “grand party” whatever we are going to call it. For I think this art show will allow for many maker voices to be heard and seen.
My own propaganda:
10X10 show will be a pure and true opportunity to involve many of the “untapped” members thus showing off what “we” do even more. Each member will receive a support (piece of wood) that is 10 inches by 10 inches and asked to transform it (I will probably ask that you pay cost on it…To be discussed). Simply put this piece of wood could become…anything. Anything at all 2D 3D lasered, mechanical, heck I don’t know and I’m excited to see what people do with it. It’s small enough that it’s not scary. It’s an equal playing ground for everyone involved. Yup I’m super excited about it so the answer is no based on my naked anticipatory joy alone. Hope you understand.
Thoughts on what I read:
This is an interesting discussion. We must remember our tone with online writing as sometimes it comes off as harsh when it wasn’t intended to go that way. It is true that creative types are abused for skill and it’s a sensitive topic that is touched upon as many balance rent with sweat. Free sweat takes away from rent sweat sometimes that’s ok and sometimes it’s not.
Moment of Zen
I would love to see more design based signs up at the space. While I understand the utilitarian basis for what the shop signs look like I also see potential in catching the eye and conveying a message with a creative twist. Thus the whole art teacher lifestyle I pretend to have. I will leave you with an image that I think balances out this whole discussion. PS I don’t read Russian @macapaka please translate it for us.
