Lift Install Updates

Automotive
#48

Now we are back to creating second class members who don’t have full access to all the tools the first day they join.

And for what reason?

Safety?
There isn’t a 3 month waiting list to use the table saw, band saw, metal lathe, welder, or other of the more dangerous tools. The training class on this lift shouldn’t take more than a few minutes with a simple signoff sheet stating you have taken the class and know the risks.

Drive by membership?
There is way more chance that someone is going to join for one month to use the woodworking tools to build a bed, or patio furniture then quit, than there is going to be people lining up to use this lift.

#49

I have to strongly disagree with this idea. Most people can’t wait a full month to be able to use the lift for repairs/projects. Add in scheduling conflicts and it gets even worse.

The simple solution is to offer training to DMS members only for a nominal fee ($50 max) and feel things out to see how it goes. If it becomes clear that people are joining for a month just to use the lift, then we decide how to address the issue.

Obviously, the lift needs to be locked out with keys provided to those with training.

2 Likes
#50

I frankly feel like an oil change would tie up the lift unnecessarily. It’s extremely easy to change oil on the floor with ramps.

I would like to see the lift “reserved” for more complex work… but maybe that’s because I’m a regular user of the auto shop and I tend to spend a lot of time rolling around under my Suburban.

1 Like
#51

RFID tags can do this, without having to issue physical keys. Need some readers with solid-state relays on a timer at the device. Tap your tag, SSR engages on a timer, allows the lift to run for 15-30 minutes. Another tag tap is needed to reactivate.

Instead of trying to homebrew this, why not just see if Ops can allocate funds to all “power tools” for this sort of hardware? We need it now, and the homebrew solutions don’t seem to be making forward progress.

(Being a embedded firmware/systems geek, I’m having trouble recommending a commercial solution, but I think we need something now … not another maker project)

1 Like
#52

It looks like you folks are overthinking the use of the lift to an extreme .

Awsomer - I don’t think it is reasonable at all to have to wait three months to use the lift by anybody.

It is NOT a CNC or other delicate machine - the lift “training” couldn’t possible exceed 15 or 20 minutes to anyone cable of filling out the waiver when joining the DMS.

Brandon’s fee is a bit excessive I agree - I’d suggest $50 as a one time free to members.
Zero vehicles left on the lift overnight / in excess of a single 24 hour period should be a rule. If a car is left on the left over the time then that member should forfeit use of the lift for say 30 days.

Let’s be reasonable & friendly here and keep it a dot.org oranization.

I’m a new member (july 14th) and donated it in the hopes of giving back to the DMS for being an enjoyable space to be. So far it has been a great experience.

The motor and pump unit along with the misc other items will be brought in Fri or Sat depending on my work shedule - the motor is SINGLE PHASE.

What does it take to get on the automotive commitee?

5 Likes
#53

Tom,

It looks like you folks are overthinking the use of the lift to an extreme .

Heh, heh… agreed.

It may help to understand a few things about DMS and our culture:

  1. We discussed an automotive lift back in Dec 2014 (this thread here:

Fundraising for installing 2 post lift )

and interestingly it was Ken Purcell who made the original $100 suggestion for training and he is the Electronics Chairperson. (very nice guy and has done great things for that area) Also, Brandon made a very good suggestion regarding the training fee. (you can review the thread if you like)

  1. What appears to be a lot of overcomplicated going back and forth tends to be part of our social processing. You learn a lot about other members, their position and thinking processes, plus you often learn some new things as people bring up good points and / or resources to consider.

The real danger is in taking ourselves too seriously or getting overly rigid / entrenched in being right or whatever, though the safety aspect should always be paramount.

Let’s be reasonable & friendly here and keep it a dot.org oranization. I’m a new member (july 14th) and donated it in the hopes of giving back to the DMS for being an enjoyable space to be. So far it has been a great experience.

Good points - I think it best to show mindful appreciation for this gift and discuss this a bit more calmly. In my world view, the Universe tends to send more good things when you take this approach.

Ironically, there seemed to be less conflict when we were considering buying the lift outright instead of having a benefactor like Tom appear. (compare the threads and decide for yourselves)

Zero vehicles left on the lift overnight / in excess of a single 24 hour period should be a rule. If a car is left on the left over the time then that member should forfeit use of the lift for say 30 days.

Sounds reasonable.

What does it take to get on the automotive commitee?

Tom, if you go to the Wiki here:

https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Automotive_Committee

It states under the Members section:

“Brandon Green is currently the Chair of this committee. No formal joining of the committee is required, any members is free to help with any projects or use our available tools (in accordance to the rules).”

Tap your tag, SSR engages on a timer, allows the lift to run for 15-30 minutes. Another tag tap is >needed to reactivate.

I believe from a safety perspective, this might be undesirable if you need to adjust in an emergency. Also, one more layer adds a potential fault point.

I frankly feel like an oil change would tie up the lift unnecessarily. It’s extremely easy to change oil on the floor with ramps.

Jeremy, I agree, my Jedi mechanic.

I personally would not use it for that either, but some members have physical limitations and may not be able to scooch under or work underneath on their back as ably as you and I.

In retrospect, it was probably not the best example, but the point was quicker, “light-line” work as opposed to the more complex projects you mentioned. And sometimes it is desirable to lift a vehicle just to get a visual recon of the suspension, motor mounts, underbody damage, fluid leaks, etc.

Oh, and something else that occurred is a central philosophy that Stan brought up about rushing through a job. I learned a long time ago that short cuts are expensive with a lot of things, particularly with auto repair. In general, the difference spent in time between doing a hurried, sloppy fix and doing it correctly and methodically is only about 10 minutes on average, so it is better to develop professional habits and keep learning from others.

If you think I’m wrong, then do something rushed and half-assed, then find out how much more time and money you have to spend correcting that mistake later.

JAG “The Zen of X-Wing Maintenance” MAN

#54

Find me something I have been looking for something for years!

3 Likes
#55

If I was doing it, the tag swipe would unlock the power, but that power wouldn’t be shut off until the lift was back down. Perhaps a toggle so that the lift automatically goes off when it hits bottom and would then require a tag swipe to get it back up. It could then track “time up” for each user. Simplest may be to have the tag swipe trigger a physical lock on the lift, similar but opposite to the automatic locks on some jacks. The relay pulls a sloped/sprung pin from the body, so the lift can go up. When the lift goes up beyond an inch or so, the pin is reengaged automatically, but the hole no longer lines up, so it doesn’t lock anything. The body coming back down automatically engages the pin as soon as the hole lines up. That way, your tag swipe relay isn’t even tied in to the 220v power system or whatever, it is tied to a separate power source and only has to control the lock pin.

#56

Of course, there are always exceptions.

Another suggestion is to post a big sign on the lift with the cost of training. Reason being: there are DIY garages in DFW that allow people to pay a rental fee for using a lift and tools. If someone has a single project that they want to work on and, during the tour, they see that the “join for one month just to use the lift” method isn’t necessarily more cost-effective than one of those DIY garages, it may curtail some of that behavior.

My 2 cents, this is.

1 Like
DIY Garages in DFW/ Golden Triangle Region
#57

I’ve noticed any time the idea of having RFID locks on the equipment is brought up that there are concerns about safety–primarily that time-outs can be hazardous when used with heavy machinery, as well as issues with hacking a relay into multi-phase non-standard power setups.

I was wondering, what about instead of RFID locking the equipment directly, we had manual locks over the power switches and the keys for all such equipment kept in a grid of small electronic lock boxes? RFID a console (maybe similar to the one in the kitchen?) and choose what tool(s) you need. If you’re on a list of approved users for that tool, it can pop the door open for you. No worry about timing out of equipment when you use it, we can still track what is being used, when and by who, and no need for an employee to check out equipment for usage. Could also be used by other committees like Digital Media with slightly larger boxes to house their nice digital camera for check-out.

I guess the only question would be, would people actually return the keys when they were done?

As to the lift, $100 seems pricey, though I’d likely pay it (I’m staring at a need to swap out a $20 part that would otherwise cost near $1000 to have it professionally done, due to the need to access the transmission). Personally I’d much rather see it at $50-75, but that’s just me. The 3 month waiting idea seems ludicrously unnecessary though.

“I frankly feel like an oil change would tie up the lift unnecessarily.” I suppose this is technically true, but it would tie up the lift for all of 20 minutes. I don’t know exactly how much use the lift will end up getting with all the stipulations developing around its use, but I would see nothing wrong with a frivolous lift for an easy oil/brake change/tire rotation if it was being otherwise unused.

2 Likes
#58

Shaun,

I’ve noticed any time the idea of having RFID locks on the equipment is brought up that there are concerns about safety–primarily that time-outs can be hazardous when used with heavy machinery, as well as issues with hacking a relay into multi-phase non-standard power setups.

I was wondering, what about instead of RFID locking the equipment directly, we had manual locks over the power switches and the keys for all such equipment kept in a grid of small electronic lock boxes? RFID a console (maybe similar to the one in the kitchen?) and choose what tool(s) you need. If you’re on a list of approved users for that tool, it can pop the door open for you. No worry about timing out of equipment when you use it, we can still track what is being used, when and by who, and no need for an employee to check out equipment for
usage.

That is exactly what I was thinking over breakfast this morning - RFID the control key, not the machine.

I guess the only question would be, would people actually return the keys when they were done?

Thought about that too and I may have an idea. Attach a light, but large and brightly colored block to the key so that it is easy to spot and difficult to walk out with in your pocket without being aware of it. In addition, put one of those finder RFID tracking devices or a Tile on it so it can be located easily. And have an emergency set of spare keys.

Does anyone know if these things work well or not?

JAG “Dowsing For My Car Keys” MAN

#59

Again, maybe the best solution is to start with fewer rules and change if necessary.

It’s kinda silly to sit around and theorize about future problems that may or may not arise.

3 Likes
#60

Jeremy,

Again, maybe the best solution is to start with fewer rules and change if necessary. It’s kinda silly to sit around and theorize about future problems that may or may not arise.

Agreed on that as well. Let’s not live in what one of my friends has aptly named “If Land” - just get it going, focus on safety and see what sticks to the wall, then deal with the issues that actually do arise.

JAG “Triage Of Attention” MAN

#61

Haaa, I love getting called out on the $100 fee, yes I did propose it initially. But I was trying to get the money to BUY a lift. Now we have one donated. Maybe $100 training fee is appropriate or not. People will with vote with their dollars.

I propose a $5 per use toilet fee to replace the broken toilet tank lid. :hankey:

:grin: truly sorry for saying that

On another note it does seem we have moved the deep discussions to talk. Instead of the membership meetings where we hashed these kind of things in detail in the past.

We are perpetually looking for an equipment access system. Each device has it’s own particular challenges. Can’t cut power in the middle of a cut, shouldn’t lock out the lift if it needs to be moved in an emergency since it is resting on someone’s chest, etc.

1 Like
#62

I am currently searching for such an option. There are a few viable commercial solutions, but they want to tie up the hardware with contract maintenance. Those that do not follow that business plan seem to be clunkly or prohibitively expensive. The search continues… Thus if you have any suggestions, please let (M̶e̶) us know.

…X…

#63

The Calgary space (www.protospace.ca if you ever find yourself in Calgary) had a separate members-only list for airing the family laundry. Some things just aren’t appropriate for public discourse.

#64

The reason $100 was proposed this time around, was to discourage abuser from signing for one month just to use the lift and/or wreck the space. Check.

The Training alternative, that would achieve the same result, would be Spaced out training. Since training is unavoidable for this piece of equipment, AND members who are going to stick around for a long time are more desirable…Whats a month extra anyway. The option I presented in bold above, achieves the same result through scheduling, with no exorbitant additional costs. Check.

So it seems that getting MONEY is the true motivator. OR is there something I am missing, as the way these issues are presented become muddle and non-sequitur.

Otherwise we may need to add to the open night tours presentation, “As a current member, you may use any space, or equipment 24hrs a day BUT… arbitrary charges.”

…X…

#65

Here’s why I disagreed with that idea above:

People tend to work on their vehicles at DMS to save money. If something breaks or is wearing out on my vehicle, I may not be able to wait for the initial training and then wait another month for the test so I can finally repair my vehicle.

Your idea works for people who just want to tinker around with a side project but if someone needs the lift ASAP for a repair, it just doesn’t make sense.

The training class for the lift should be fairly short and sweet. At the end, each participant can demonstrate that they know how to safely lift a vehicle. It’s not rocket surgery.

#66

The training class for the lift should be fairly short and sweet. At
the end, each participant can demonstrate that they know how to
safely lift a vehicle. It’s not rocket surgery.

… unless it’s an Oldsmobile.

4 Likes
#67

You are right, that extending the training is prohibitive in its own fashion. Thus was the point, in order to solve some issues presented in this thread (I know TL;DR) I am glad we agree that saving money is important, and thus why the Training should not cost and only take as long as it needs to take.

A minor point, training should NEVER be short and sweet. EVER! Training should be appropriate to ensure the trainee(s) gain the knowledge and skills necessary to proficiently perform the task at hand. When dealing with powered equipment: short should not be part of the equation, and safety is the cornerstone.

To clarify the only reason I proposed the two month training thing was as a viable option to discourage one time members who needs to drop a transmission, abuse the space and disappear. Which is one of the chief complaints, expectations and justification for charging an arm and a leg for “training” in the first place?

We should just roll with it, no charges just appropriate training and see what happens. Fix the problems that pop up and not try to engineer solutions to plausible ones.

…X…