$100 for training on the lift is nuts.
Comparing training on an auto lift to training on either of the CNC machines is like comparing apples and aardvarks.
A 30 minutes (being generous) class on the lift doesn’t compare in any fashion to the training needed for the CNCs.
The reality is that folks who list themselves on the committee (any committee) rarely actually ‘do’ anything. It all basically falls upon the committee chair, which is one reason it is such a thank less job.
It is a sad fact that as we grow we will need to install rules that many of us do not like because we will have an increasing number of members who create problems. I don’t know what I think of this proposal of Brandon’s, but I certainly can understand why he thinks it is necessary.
Electrical can be hooked up very quickly with the 25 ft 220v NEMA 14-50 extension cord we have. There is a 14-50 socket between the dock doors, and the lift could be plugged into it when needed, then unplugged after. This is would be a temporary solution until a hard power line could be installed. Tom said that he had it connected to a 220v 30A circuit when he was using it.
Are you volunteering to deal with it?
I felt that $50 for training on the CNC Router was fair and a good value. It was a 4 hour class. As Alex points out the instructors then have to test out the member before they are free to use the machine on their own.
Having a fee for training on the lift is fair too, just not sure $100 is. That comes across as being punitive. But please elaborate how it should be this expensive, maybe I’m missing some details.
Wonders if I can offer soldering or PnP training for $50 
In all honesty we may need to have a fee for the Pick & Place. We have to design boards, buy parts and have a stencil made.
The CNC router and the HAAS, are complicated, and require expensive tooling. Paying a training fee for those makes sense…Financial incentive to pay attention so as not to damage an expensive machine or hurt yourself, and also to purchase expensive tooling. They are specialized tools that many members may never need to use and would be unlikely to ever be able to afford to buy themselves.
This lift is simple, simpler than many other types of lifts, was free to DMS, and doesn’t require expensive tooling or maintenance.
DMS is for learning and doing.
It would be a great experience for people to learn to use the lift who otherwise would never have access to one. Putting the price to use the lift at $100 will discourage the casual member from ever having that experience.
There are a lot of cool tools at DMS that people get to use and experience. If we start putting training fees on everything to limit their use, people will either hurt themselves by trying to do something with the wrong tool, or people won’t see any value in DMS, and membership will drop.
I have been through Alex’s class on the CNC router and I commend him both on the excellent class he does and his willingness to donate so much of his time to teaching that class. $50 for his instruction as well as helping to purchase tooling was easily justified.
I apologize to those in this thread for my sarcasm…My passion expresses itself as sarcasm and in no way do I mean to criticize anyone personally. I don’t have a lot of free time and I appreciate the time that the chairpersons and committee members sacrifice to make the DMS a better place for me and others. 
I should point out that the HAAS training costs what it does simply because I choose to charge that. I funnel all the money back into the machine shop, and in fact it pays for the entire shop, but it’s purely my choice. Another supervisor could offer the training for free if they so chose.
I actually think that’s a good model for Automotive. The only tool they have w/ the intense interest capable of raising revenue is the lift. With that revenue I can see A/C reclamation equipment, an engine analyzer, a tire changer/balancer, and other currently unobtainable equipment coming to DMS in the future.
I can attest that Bryan’s approach has provided the machine shop with numerous purchases that we (members) would not otherwise have at our disposal. The vertical band saw, the new Clausing drill press, and the new Bench Grinders are just a few of the major purchases he has made with the money raised by the HAAS classes (and his generous donations).
Many of the smaller (but relatively expensive) items available for members in the Machine Shop were also funded with this mechanism. Training fees can provide much general support for a committee that would not otherwise be available. If you attend the board meetings it becomes readily apparent that the demand for discretionary funds far exceeds what is available from the simple monthly membership fees.
I would also add that two of the ‘no training’ required tools, the Bridgeport and the Colchester Lathe, generate the greatest demand for replacement tooling then the HAAS does. I suspect that Brandon has to spend much of his budget on replacements tools that member break and/or misplace. A training fee such as he describes can go a long way to keeping the Shop equiped.
And use fees don’t really seem to work at the space. The 3D fab is a perfect example. They are really having a problem with members actually paying for their use.
Personally I would rather see us using a training fee on a select group of tooling then try to implement all of the policies and operations that would be nescessary to police all members and ensure they pay their usage fees.
I can maybe see a use fee, but $100 for training… nope, I’ll use the jack stands and bitch about it.
Currently our classes that have training fees are for stuff that needs extensive training, the stuff that has use fees has ongoing maintenance or supplies needed.
In my opinion, if we start charging for more than maint. and supplies, then we start looking more like TechShop and less like a Makerspace.
Personally, I have no objection a training fee for the lift. There are benefits as others have noted.
However, when the fee is high, and the objective is to discourage use, then that is a very different matter.
Not at all excellent in fact.
$35-$50 I probably wouldn’t mind, although towards the higher end of that I’ll be waiting until I have immediate need.
As a new member (started in March), one of the few things that I encountered at the space that initially gave me negative feelings was the perception that I was going to be charged an additional fee to gain access to some of the tooling and that my perception (initially) was that the fees weren’t being used to offset actual costs.
Now I have since realized just what the fees (CNC Router and HAAS) are actually being used for and that my initial perceptions were faulty, but it actually took some effort on my part. I had to actually talk to people in a non-confrontational way to discover the reasons for the fees.
I also bring a slightly different perspective since I grew up quite poor and had many opportunities denied me because I couldn’t afford ‘small fees’ for things. Bryan and I have been discussing charging a small fee for the Bridgeport classes I have been offering as a way to continue to supplement the budget for the machine shop. But I really don’t want to keep someone who can’t afford a ‘small fee’ from learning to use equipment so in discussing the problem with a number of members have arrived at a solution that I think is fair. I will be listing the class with an paid event brite ticket required but also say that anyone who wishes a ‘scholarship’ should contact me and I will remove one event brite ticket and reserve them a spot.
I think such a compromise approach might be a good general solution to this kind of thing; however, it is certainly subject to abuse. If such abuse occurs, I may have to re-evaluate.
Hey Brandon,
I understand where you are coming from about weeding out the hit-and-run memberships, safety and so forth. I also understand why there is some static about $100 training for a reasonably simple piece of equipment, especially to people who have been or are auto mechanics and / or longer to long term members of DMS.
I was an ASE certified mechanic myself, took a few years of automotive at Brookhaven, worked in shops with several lifts and used a lift with no training down at Keesler AFB last year to work on my then girlfriend’s car. (but Jesus, I was VERY careful)
HOWEVER, I would personally insist on being trained no matter how much experience I have had or how simple the lift is. Afterwards, if you feel that I am competent, I can even be in the rotation to instruct as I am a stickler for safety when it comes to raising any heavy piece of machinery in the air.
The item kicking up the biggest dust is the $100 - may I peacefully offer an alternative thought?
I think the lift should have a rental fee that is directly related to the amount of time being used just like the laser and 3D printers. (whose costs are tied to the amount of material used, but winds up roughly correlating with how much time it is being utilized anyway)
For one, I don’t think that even $150 (fee + 1 month’s membership) will in itself discourage someone from doing a drivetrain swap or some other project that will keep the vehicle up on the lift for many hours and days.
Perhaps the 3 months minimum membership rule should be considered as well.
Also, I think the real heat isn’t just going to be from the training fee; it will likely continue from individuals wanting to do something simple and shorter like an oil change / exhaust system repair who need to wait behind someone doing a custom engine swap.
I personally don’t have any plans to use the lift myself in the near future, but I would like to know just in case I see someone doing something unsafe or needing a hand doing it right.
At any rate, the rental fee (in addition to a lower training fee like $25) will likely provide a steadier stream of income for the Automotive Committee from individuals who utilize it more (which is a model already in place at DMS) and assist in purchasing additional items as Bryan and Walter suggested.
Does this sound reasonable?
JAG “Elevating Discussion by Hydraulic Assist” MAN
A usage based fee would be ideal, but is not practical to enforce without a fulltime person there checking people in and out. The large up front fee is a cash grab, for cash I can use to improve the auto area, I will survey more members to see what the market will bear and consider lower fees like $25, $50 or $99.99
I’ll happily pay $50 for a training course.
I’m hesitant for a usage rental fee unless we have some sliding values. Use of the lift under 1hr is $5. 1-4 hours is maybe $10. 4 to 24 is $25. Something like that.
We don’t really want to rush people with hourly costs… I don’t want someone rushing thru a brake job.
Which is exactly why @bgangwere doesn’t charge for usage time on the Haas and based upon his thinking why we decided not to on Multicam.
“Hey, if I double the feedrate, it takes less time and costs less money!” 
Maybe $50 for the initial training ( and to help out automotive ), and then voluntary donations for longer or repeated uses of the lift.
Put a QR code on it so it’s a smartphone / paypal direct to Auto. ( assuming there’s a mechanism for that. I know it works in 3D printing. )
Brandon,
A usage based fee would be ideal, but is not practical to enforce without a fulltime person there checking people in and out.
We don’t have anyone checking people out on the 3D printer or laser - it is on the honor system from what I understand. And if you see the same vehicle on the lift for a few days in a row and no payment in the box (or whatever) I believe that will be obvious.
If you are looking for an exact or accurate count, I would think “close” is good enough. Also, isn’t the lift supposed to be locked down with a key and you can track how long that key is checked out? I am just trying to get a feel for the system and your thought process here.
And in the BOD meeting, there was some talk about having a reservation system for high utilization machines. I think you are going to be compelled to move in that direction one way or another if my intuition has not wholly left me. Again, this was necessary at UTD in the research lab.
The large up front fee is a cash grab,
Well, I think that was acutely sensed, and while I can understand your approach, it does seem to have increased the heat on this topic a bit.
for cash I can use to improve the auto area
I doubt anyone objects to that goal, but from my observation, perception and execution is very important to the culture of DMS.
will survey more members to see what the market will bear and consider lower fees like $25, $50 or $99.99
That sounds like a good idea - thank you for listening!
JAG “Lifting Hopes For Auto Repair” MAN