Some of that cost was engineered so that members would not join for 1 month, pay the $50 training fee, use the equipment with little care, and then stop their membership after they’d done all they came to do. This sort of use case is something we’d like to avoid. People who want that should go to Jack Junkies (and see the real cost of lift bay time).
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So we are intentionally hiding the fee outside of the tour and the wiki then to avoid that?
If someone misuses the lift, They could be hurt or killed, othets could be hurt and killed and about the least that could happen
is a car gets totaled, I wonder how much of that our insurance would cover?
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Well then I suggest a mandatory class be attended and a test passed as a prerequisite to allowing them to join.
Shouldn’t take much more than 6 to 8 hours to cover the basics of where everything is, what major policies are, what member’s expectations are, why training is required even if you say you’re experienced - training also covers policies.
I’ll be glad to help create this course and teach part it. I’m sure there are a number of other people that would to.
I think such a course would separate those that have a “customer” vs “member” attitude towards the space.
When I see someone complain that they have 30 or 40 years experience, complain training isn’t offered enough, but aren’t willing to contribute by teaching a class to help solve the problem and share their experience, I think I’m hearing a customer.
I have no expectation that people help or invest as much time as you or I do … or as many others also do (that’s our choice and nature) but just paying $50 and expecting everything is not what we are about or ever were.
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Nope. Nothing to hide, as it was discussed on here in a public forum. Just trying to give you some color on the discussion that led to the current rules.
https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Tools#Automotive
https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Automotive_Committee (search for “Lift Rules” and read #6)
Sure, however a new member interested in joining probably isn’t going to look through all that. That’s fairly well buried within the website.
You could argue that that’s their fault, they should do their research and dig as deep as needed to find what they want, but seems a case of they don’t know what they don’t know. If it’s mentioned on the Join page that there’s additional fees or even a fee table, at least they know they need to search for something else.
Full disclosure and all that since we’re not trying to hide anything.
You are a dues-paying member, now it’s time to become a volunteer! Create such a page and keep it up to date.
@Team_Infrastructure can help you get it put on the website.
(edit: Hey, looks like there’s already a request for something like this. You should contact @clk75201 to see if she wants to help you work on the page/table of fees.)
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Yes, yes he is.
20chars
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This should be up-front. I understand, DMS came from a long line of frontierspeople and outdoor types (Raising Arizona) who had to pull together to get stuff done. I get it. There are “long timers” here who have hashed out every possible argument and have firmly dug their feet in. Again, I get it. I’ve been in the same job for almost 10 years and I’m still the “new guy” to some people here.
But that is not DMS now. There are plenty of people, like myself, who have most of their own stuff. I may have a project I want to do for which the single tool I don’t have is a table saw. I could rig up a straight edge and use my circ saw and finish with my router, but I’m old enough to know I don’t want to mess with that. So I may want to pop over to DMS to rip my stock, and while I’m there I’ll go ahead and use the miter saw to size my pieces. Then I’ll clean up after myself, put stuff away, and GTFO so I can glue up with my dogs under foot, a beer and (if my wife isn’t home) do it all in the living room with Saving Private Ryan on.
Yet to read the vocal minority on Talk, if that’s why I’m a member, I’m a bad member because I don’t want to come hang out, shoot the breeze, and get around to my project eventually. And sometimes I do have time.
I have no problem “being excellent.” If I see something that needs picked up or thrown away, I’ll do it. If I see a committee chair or member that I recognize I’ll ask if they need help. But expecting every member to come be part of the community is unrealistic.
So, to get around to what I quoted again, if the expectation is for members to “really belong” (my phrasing) before benefiting from DMS, I honestly think DMS has grown to big to expect that. If you don’t want people to come, pay their fifty bucks, get trained, use the one tool they don’t have for the one project they might need it for in a several-year span, (edit: and then never come back) then I’ll say DMS needs to change its membership structure. There are lots of ways that can take place, whether it’s making the first month (or 3) cost $75 (but include some of the more universal classes), require a starting three-month membership instead of one, assigning new members to a committee much like Congress does, and require them to attend a committee meeting before they can use any training-required tools.
I don’t know the solution. But I do know that continually repeating, “this isn’t the kind of member we want,” while the rules allow just that kind of member, is counterproductive.
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This reads as if joining and reading Talk is a requirement for membership, which it is not.
Not really. This was once partially true, but it isn’t really any longer. Talk is the ONLY method we use to report issues, so effectively when that decision was made, talk became mandatory for members.
Talk and Wiki is how, we as an organization, have decided to communicate our rules and our culture So their use, at least at a cursory level is required. Each person has the responsibility to know our rules and culture and adhere to them. And yes, once they grasp them, they can influence the modification as they think we should.
I haven’t seen a single long time member state we do everything perfectly, nor did I see anyone attempt to ‘silence’ the discussion. What I did see was subtle (apparently) and finally not so subtle suggestions that before trying to change things, one has a responsibility for first understanding why we as a group have the current policies we do. It is a fact that those who join an existing group have a responsibility to first learn the groups culture and rules, in particular why those rules exist, before they start with “Well this is how we did it…” or “That’s great, but you really should be…”
I also disagree that telling folks, “This isn’t the kind of member we want.” is counterproductive. Just the opposite, we know that we don’t want ‘customers’. We have years of experience that allows us to arrive at this conclusion. We are not a tool collective, we are an educational non profit with a primary purpose of teaching. The access to the tools is incidental to our primary purpose. Further, we exist solely because our members are expected to contribute to the operation and maintenance of our greatest tool, the DMS organization.
The fact is that our membership has continued to grow despite everything we are doing wrong. That real world evidence seems to indicate our basic culture works.
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Aren’t you that lady that always harasses the board members about wanting to start up another makerspace?
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We do have some churn and for a broad range of reasons. But having 1400+ members does not indicate they are stupid or misinformed.
We are building the best community we can with what we have. True, some members are abrasive or cultural vampires. We have to listen best we can and attempt to do a good job of moderating the dialog.
I’m a pretty snarky person but I do realize that it does not help when others read into my message something that is not there. I suggest that everyone try to think about the other’s position before ranting on.
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The “by the month” membership cost option does not support this assertion. $50 for one-month access to a lift/wood shop/Bridgeport will definitely create a healthy number of “customers” who just need access to that tool one time in a several-year period.
p.s. - I love your illustration. 
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It has been suggested in the past that we require a long term contract, but the general membership didn’t seem to support the idea. As I recall the primary reason was that we didn’t want to discourage people who simply can’t afford to pay every month. So we allow the membership to expire, and then be picked up again as they can afford. Personally I think this is a good solution. Doesn’t change that we expect members not customers. Customers don’t take out the trash, teach classes, maintain equipment, etc…
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Nope. I have zero desire to start up another makerspace. I have some desire in getting what was promised. That desire varies depending on how much I’ve been slapped around lately. Still, I feel it’s worthwhile to advocate for new members like myself.
I wish you old-timers could understand how close you are to the excellence you think you have. If you weren’t so stubborn and defensive, a few subtle changes would get you there. One would be to stop throwing knives at frustrated new members. Another would be to accurately describe the commitment in writing rather than assuming we can read your old-timer minds.
We’re getting there. You just don’t make it easy.
My apologies for that, you just look similar to the lady I was referring to 
I’m not opposed to change like some other old-timers, but I do wish people would search on Talk before complaining about something (at the same time, I wish the Talk search engine was smarter…). As others have stated, this argument has already happened like three or so times, and we’re pretty tired of having it.
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And I think what started this whole thread is, if that were documented someplace, maybe it would quit coming up.
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Yes, that is the key. Nothing prevents the folks who think it is needed from documenting it.
Something everyone needs to remember. If you think the $50 charge for the auto lift needs to change, then you either need to convince the current Auto chair, or replace the current auto chair. Those really are the ONLY two choices within our organizational structure.
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