The lift is easier to get forgotten in the hubbub in part because Tom does such an awesome job of one-on-one training anytime anyone needs it there are never classes. For the others (HAAS, MultiCAM are the big ones I can think of) there are semi-regular classes and you can see how much those cost in recent history (or near future). I see little or no point in putting those on the wiki, for that reason (though anyone is certainly welcome to do what they darned well want without waiting for MY blessing!).
Yes I decided to charge a one time fee for lift access to generate revenue (as opposed to charging per use or by time or no charge), the fee has generated on the order of ~$5,000 for automotive since we got the lift donated from @TLAR. Hard to pull up an easy to read report, but the auto committee has spent a total of around ~$30,000 since its creation. (for reference DMS as a whole currently has 500-600k / year in revenue)
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BTW, Iām going to start holding class-style training to speed up the training on this bit of equipment.
(edit: the class will meet around the lift, not in a boring classroom)
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You clearly underestimate the membership. Most of the people here would say exactly the same thing to your face.
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This is precisely the attitude that makes organizations like this great. And again, itās not the money thatās the issue. Itās the communication.
I have precisely zero issue presenting anything Iāve said here in any forum, at any time.
I think that the issue is that Iām seeing things through a new memberās eyes, and many (most?) of you are not. Knowing history and context is good, important even. But being able to accept that the external perception and optics are not as positive as youād hoped them to be is also important.
To get back to the core issue I first want to say thanks for bringing up the concerns you have of the space. There is no intent to deceive people. If you know who gave your tour or what they looked like please PM so we can make sure they are providing all the people on the tour with the appropriate information.
Second, In the handbook you should have received when you signed up (DMS Handbook v2_2017_02_09.pdf (1.2 MB)) there is a list of tools on page 4. In that list there is a ā(training cost)ā next to the Automotive list, Haas Mill and Multicam CNC Router. We need to update it to include Woodshop tools.
Third, we try to keep prices as low as possible. As some have stated, try and go to any other place and get trained or have access to some equipment and the prices increase dramatically. The reasoning for charges can also vary, It can be for usage, consumables and even in some cases to protect our volunteer time. For example the $5 woodshop basics fee is there because people would sign up and not show. Since the fee was added the level of no shows has dropped dramatically.
As an aside I want to remind people that new members coming in donāt have the entire backstory or the institutional knowledge that others have built up over the years. With this sometimes a fresh pair of eyes can be an asset, sometimes not. In either case we should not just dismiss anyone. Another place to bring up these issues up would be at the member meetings. The next one is this Thursday at 8pm.
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Lets talk about another 501 c3 group in the area that is somewhat similar to us, other than they are
in just arts, The Dallas Craft Guild. There is a yearly fee for membership, not as high as a monthly
membership here would be over a full year, However classes there are a lot more expensive, often
nearly $100 for members and it want to work independent in an area like
the pottery lab, you have take classes first and t then you pay an hourly fee for using the
lab. and you have very limited hours to work,
Very few classes have a $50 fee, I think the lift and the CNC wood routere are the only ones,
There are fees for other classes, some will defray additionals costs such as firing
the pottery kilns,
The costs here are extremely reasonable and I am a very poor member, my hubby and I
live on his SS alone, I could never afford the fees at places like The Craft Guild or Dallas
Creative Arts Center. I will admit that both of them have more equipment in the areas they
teach than we do, We do a lot more than they do, with all the various areas
I understood that fees like these 2 are to defray things like insurance on the lift and expensive bits on the CNC
router,
I look at the lift class this way, I could use what I would spend on an oil change to
pay for it and then I can easily change my oil for multiple time, ( I know you don t have to have a lift, but I HATE
crawling under a car and with long hair and generous boobs it is not pleasant-dirt driveway at home)
Hang around the space a bit and I think you will see what a bargain you membership fee is
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When will you either:
A: Give tours to ensure every facet of DMS is explained and disclosed to avoid what you have experienced. We are all volunteers, the people giving tours have paid their dues also and are donating their time. You are free to call us out on any perceived or actual problems you see here. But be prepared to be challenged to contribute to a solution.
B: As suggested take an active part in committees, chairmanships, BoD, tour guides, instruct a class. Just paying $50 and voicing what you donāt like in an organization, that is in fact continuously growing and expanding, doesnāt carry as much weight as members that do a lot of volunteering. That is reality.
If you truly feel cheated, mislead, lied to, or deceived. I will personally pay you the $50 you seem to feel DMS is not worth it and the nickel and diming experienced. Get with me this week otherwise I will; assume you feel the money paid is worth it. I assume cash is acceptable. Just need your badge and deactivated account.
As far as being free to voice your complaints - you are free to do so. But donāt expect not be challenged if folks disagree, especially when terms like deceived or lied are used.
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I donāt think anyone is having trouble accepting it. @wandrson happens to use a relatively combative / blunt tone on talk; try not to let it get to you.
Telling you to do things yourself isnāt meant to silence you; itās the way things are actually done. Someone has to do them, and believe it or not āsomeoneā is going to be a member with more or less the same privilege level as yourself. Even though there are fancy systems for it (we ARE makers 
), at the end of the day itās a member with approximately the same privilege level as you on the other side of that system actually handling the problem.
The only real kind of āspecial statusā one can have is āwilling and able to do the work.ā Board members are willing to do that work, ergo they get a certain extra latitude. Same with committee chairs and other people who consistently volunteer their time. Privilege is basically a function of your willingness and ability to pitch in. Thatās pretty much it.
I think the person most likely to unilaterally dictate this particular perception issue would be whoeverās running the PR committee now. If I were interested in pursuing this I would start there, or ask a board member, or like someone else suggested edit the wiki myself. They are likely to accept your input if you have a mind to offer it.
In the future you may wish to phrase your complaints somewhat more diplomatically if you want to persuade someone else to address it; otherwise youāll have to do it yourself. There is simply no other way for something to be done.
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Oh, hello fellow new member. Iām about 10 weeks down this rabbit hole. Iāve already offended dozens of old members.
I concur. Itās a pretty serious perception issue.
In my case I can add equipment that is not in use, but the failed equipment is not explained during the tour. Trainings that are hit and miss, but necessary before I touch any equipment. (I know someone who blew through them, God bless that creature, and did it anywayā¦ and this crowd thinks Iām brazen.)
I will generously describe this situation as growing pains. I will hope that it reconciles soon. Iāve already said Iāll cut and run if itās not what I signed up for last January. I still weigh the experience at 50/50. I am really, really trying.
Their argument is that no one is good enough for their equipment without proof, and that the training will be proof, but the training is hard to come by and sometimes expensive. That Iāve told them Iāve used a sewing machine since I was 10 years old and am now almost 55 doesnāt matter. Iām also smart enough to not get in over my head.
Read details from the sign up and payment process, did not know about the wiki until after joining.
Again, Iāll argue itās serious disorganization and not bait switch, but Iād very much like to see all those folks so fond of DMS policy put the need for a disclosure up front for a significant revamp. I read details from the sign up and payment process, but did not know about the wiki until after joining. I really feel didnāt get what I was sold.
ducking as I run like crazy, which isnāt easy, folks
So no oneās told you yet that you wonāt even have voting rights in the upcoming election unless youāve been a member 3 months, much less be eligible to run for anything.
Sorry. Thatās absolutely the case. Iāll barely make the cut.
Thatās not been my experience. And yes, I put in a lot of hours on Monetary Drive. Maybe itās a girl/guy thing.
Very few board members ever weigh in on a discussion like this one. I trust they are consuming the news for a wise pronouncement?
Someone just changed the wiki. Cool.
Someone needs to change the payment page to indicate there will be additional expenses, maybe even adding equipment that requires more than a $10 training fee.
Someone else needs to suggest to @bknapp that if heās really unhappy, they will refund his monthly membership fees to date and let him exit DMS. Chances are he will not, but I suspect the offer and the real changes to the disclosures will make enough of a difference to end this one.
DMS wonders why thereās new member churn. This is why.
We have heard from litterally dozens (if not hundreds of people) who have sworn they have been using xyz for years, only to watch them proceed to do really stupid things and break tools, that require us to spend money to repair. We have had people saw the tips of their fingers off, among other things. So yes, we are moving to ever more training requirements. Donāt see that changing anytime soon. And as a member of a volunteer run organization, you or the other guy are welcome to demonstrate better solutions anytime. It is certainly preferable to simply telling us what we are doing wrong.
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Proficiency testing is an option. I got to do it with a sewing machine. Why not with a lift? Someone trained watches him load, if all goes well, huzzah!
If you or anyone else wants then, go to a committee meeting and propose it. Though I will tell you that if the fee is dropped, then Automotive will have less money to buy those new toolsā¦ As it should. Since our primary mission is education (not making) we use classes as our primary means of allocating funds to various committees. Up until recently Automotive wasnāt allowed to have classes, because of insurance limitations, and even now apparently canāt teach classes related to brakesā¦
All of the above information and many of the discussions concerning it are available for new members to read on talkā¦
P.S. A sewing machine isnāt likely to kill you or someone else if you overestimated your experience/skills like the lift and many of our other tools will.
Thatās exactly what the training classes do, they test proficiency after giving you initial training or just a refresher.
Doing this 1-on-1 would be a waste of trainer time, and is the primary reason we donāt do it for PlasmaCAM.
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As an all volunteer organization I would expect this into the future. Not everyone is going to be able to handle the challenges to our model and I donāt believe there is, or needs to be, a strong desire to change it. We will shrink and grow for years to come. My hope is we can be more clear in what to expect and those that choose to join embrace DMS as I have. Admittedly I am not shook easily and can go with the flow in most cases. No doubt that enables me to spend more time enjoying and less time worrying about the challenges.
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I clearly do not know how to get all fancy with the quotes! Half of what I typed ended in the quote
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