I’ve had a guy stop when asked, and then as soon as I walked out of the shop with the barrel, cranked it back up and went at it. To make it worse, he played dumb when I walked back in during his cut. Funny thing, he’s a known perpetrator with multiple reports to the BoD. Imagine that.
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Last resort is where we are, if I understood original post in this thread. And at the risk of seeming like I am quibbling over terms, I was suggesting a suspension for an appropriate amount of time, e.g. the rest of the day, or the following day.
It is not the one offender, or any one offender, that is the main problem, but everyone else I the vicinity that allows the problem, ignores the problem, or is to [insert your favorite adjective here] to address the problem.
So will having the Woodshop be completely shut down for an extended period of time. And it will hurt much worse. Also, I don’t agree that, if done the right way, suspending people or closing Woodshop for the day if needed will really hurt spirit. In fact, probably just the opposite in the longer term.
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As a newbie I don’t have a lot of suggestions, but I can say @IanLee did a good job having us clean up at the end of the wood-shop basics class. It may seem silly but maybe the last part of wood-shop basics should require people to sign a commitment that states they will clean up after themselves and clean up any leftover mess anytime they use the shop. I personally made a promise to myself that I will empty at least one of the 55 gallon dust bins every time I use the shop. I don’t understand how anyone can think it is OK to disrespect the shop and leave it dirty/dangerous. For a very small monthly fee we are getting to use tens of thousands of dollars of equipment, respect of the equipment and shop should be obvious. I want to get involved with the committee and help more, but I’m so new I’m not sure what else to do.
Can we put weekly deep cleans on the schedule where the shop is closed for an hour once a week to open all machines and thoroughly get rid of all dust. I may not be able to make it every week but I definitely would find a way to come once or twice a month and help clean. Twice a week may even be better, pick a weeknight that changes each week for those that can come on weekends, then an hour Sat or Sun for those that can come on weekends. It can be a posted rule that for that hour no work can be done other than cleaning.
I am not sure of his name but I saw a guy there yesterday doing some deep cleaning including vacuuming the filters and I was impressed to see the extra effort.
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I think that regular, scheduled deep cleaning would be a big step towards preventing these kinds of issues. The act of putting your face next to something and cleaning it, also provides an inspection opportunity. We might catch a few issues before they become dangerous.
Also, should we invest in an air quality monitor? Maybe something like [this]?(http://www.dylosproducts.com/dcproairqumo.html)
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@talkers - I’ll have to respectfully disagree with you. I’ll ask, “who doesn’t know to clean up after themselves”? My children are young and they know to do so. Why? Because, we’ve raised them that way.
Now there are times when we don’t due to runnng out of time, etc… but please, ‘everyone’ knows to clean up after themselves.
To expand a little more on your point about the ‘Spirit’ of the place and what banning people will do and what the atmosphere would be like? I do agree, banning a few members would put a chill on the place for a few members. What we dont know though is would holding members accountable be worse in the long run or better?
I would guess that we will lose some members that are banned. What we don’t know is how many members have been lost because of the conditions allowed in the shop?
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It’s largely the deep cleaning items that get missed. Or do you unplug the machine and vacuum the electrical socket every time you use a tool?
I don’t think that people are willfully ignoring cleanup. Quite often I see people clean up, but find something they missed. I know I’ve left the space and realized I forgot something after the fact. I generally try to clean up whatever other mess I encounter because I know people are imperfect and they miss things, even when they are trying to do what’s right.
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I wouldn’t support banning for first or even second offense. Failing to clean up after yourself is an act of immaturity, and a lack of respect for others. So I might suggest a “time-out” instead for first offense. A two-hour suspension from the Woodshop, and a tool that must be cleaned before you can come back in and work. Second offense? Longer suspension, more tools. Third? A month of no Woodshop. Banning should be a last resort, but that doesn’t mean we can’t get serious about enforcing the rules.
Well, we’ve taught cleaning in every WSB class for at least two years, and have also talked and talked and talked and talked. Result, is obvious. Ineffective.
More than a few, primarily to fears (fully justified) about the air quality in the woodshop.
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This is an interesting point I’d like talk more about. I’d like your opinion on what you consider willful and not willful? By not cleaning up after ourselves, is that an act of will or, if not, what is it? The truth is anything we do or don’t do is an act of will. So I know that people who don’t clean up after themselves is always a decision they’ve made and an act of their will.
Now, yes people do make mistakes and are running late and forget to do something they forgot at the moment. But I can tell you that when you hear this from the same person over and over, then it becomes apparent that it’s an excuse for a character flaw. And all character issues, good ones or bad ones, are an act of will.
We’re not talking about the conscientious member who forgets to clean up now and then because they are running late. Most I would say are good stewards. But we are talking about the members that are habitual about their lack of caring.
My recommendation was that each person who attends WS Basics should sign up for one date where they will police up (i.e., clean up) the woodshop before they leave. Maybe a couple people on weekends …
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Just wanted to mention, that the discussion is good, but we’re past that now. We need action. Shop day or days, projects assigned, committee meetings, etc etc.
So while talking may help us in the future, we need cleaning and fixing now. Today. Then we can talk about how to avoid this in the future.
If you use the woodshop, clean a tool today, inside and out. Sweep floors, vacuum along the baseboards, tackle one of the other issues that were listed. Plenty of things to be done, and most just require a member to move their feet and hands.
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I think regular deep cleaning is a great way to get started on fixing this issue. Especially while the rest of these discussions are being ironed out. (Can we go ahead and put some times out?) I haven’t yet used the Woodshop since Woodshop Basics but I’d be happy to get started with some cleaning.
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I think people not cleaning up is a symptom of a greater systemic issue: many people who join DMS are not connected to the “community” discussed above. I think this is part of the growing pains we’re experiencing; just like every startup, it’s hard to translate the attitude of 20 people to 1000 as we grow.
In an attempt to spread the makery love, In my classes I’ve tried to emphasize that this is a community workshop, and that these tools belong to each person in the class as much as they do to me. I also specifically encourage and ask members to join committees and teach.
I think targeting the root of the problem, connection to the space and other members past a simple tool borrowing space, is the real answer.
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I agree wholeheartedly, the process of training people to come around or not is best to be soft in the beginning and tough in the end.
The attitude in the wood shop needs to be that we take care of the shop and we expect the users to be apart of that.
How do I join the Woodshop committee and what does being a committee member entail?
Raise your hand to the square, stand on one foot, look the the left, and say out loud, “I solemnly swear to make fun of machine shop.”
In all seriousness, it means showing up to the roughly monthly meetings, talking with Andrew (the committee chair) occasionally, and finding a way to contribute (after talking with Andrew usually). To some people that means teaching. To some it’s cleaning up. To some it’s maintenance on machines. To some it’s taking on woodshop projects that have to be tackled (like building a new miter saw table). @Azalaket can tell you more.
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All good stuff for sure.
There is another issue that’s subtle, but seems to be apparent in most of the best shops I’ve been in. That’s having a well thought out layout for a shop to work effectively and productively. This also helps to facilitate cleanup on an ongoing basis. I know DMS has grown piece-meal and trying to get as much equipment in limited space is honorable. Because of this, I believe, what I have noticed is that the machines are tucked in a little close to each other and to the walls. This in itself kind of makes cleaning behind the machines a bit of a hassle. Therefore, not done or very limited. Also the proximities of machines are not what I’d do, if it were my shop. The work flow is a bit disjointed. But that is something that could be solved once larger space is found.
The point though is making a space easier to use and clean will help with keeping it in a well maintaned state of relative cleanliness , thus safer.
We passed that milestone a long time ago - possibly before I joined in early 2015. There are simply too many members to maintain cohesion and enforce norms.
DMS can encourage users to clean up after themselves to reduce the burden on volunteers and community contributors, but with our numbers I’m not sure DMS can avoid the need for maintenance days and the like.
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So…
after wallowing through this thread, and the others which crop up from time to time, I’m not sure some chains and padlocks around those handles on the woodshop for a couple of weeks wouldn’t be a good move.
Having watched that happen when the Health Dept. shut down my favorite Stuckey’s, and then again when they shut down the local Braum’s, and again when they shut down the local Luby’s (thankfully!), I can say tongues wag, people suddenly become aware of things they didn’t know about, or care about, and shit either gets fixed, or the chains stay on (Stuckey’s! god how I missed Stuckey’s!).
Right now, the threat of the fire marshall shutting down (the woodshop, or DMS) is just an idle threat. It’s further made idle by those who aren’t the problem continuing to make up for those who are. Once again, those who do as needed, will step in, git’rdun, and we’ll pat ourselves on the back for avoiding a shutdown. The folks who continue to let this happen, will continue ignorantly, blissfully, blowing dust out their ass and shitting on everyone else. Let THEM suffer without their much-needed woodshop for a week or 2! Sure, it “punishes everyone”, but sometimes (parenting technique from my youth, here!) you punish every child, and then they all see it a bit more clearly (thank you for invoking parenting techniques in this thread, Marshall!). At least if you’re paying ANY attention to what’s going on at DMS, you will see it coming, and can plan to do something else for that period.
Very good point. Think this should be added to the to-do list.
I will be at the space this afternoon to clean organize and also work on some sign up lists that I will be posting in the wood shop. These list will have hourly, daily, weekly and monthly chores/tasks that NEED to be done by everyone if we want the woodshop to continue to exist. They range from blowing out or vacuuming filters to calibrating tools or changing filters on the roof.
In the past month I have purchased two new shop vacs and enough brooms so that every tool should have one within arms reach at all times, so there is no excuse not to clean up after yourself… especially lack of time.
@wandrson is helping us work on a system that will help notify everyone in the shop via a siren that the filters are clogged and notify me via an email who was there to clean it and disable the alarm.
I love helping and teaching members about all the great things we have at DMS and the woodshop. We have over 1600 members now… we have new and old members who have repeatedly shown that cleaning after themselves is not a priority. As chairperson of the woodshop I can not allow such behavior. If you find a tool filthy and the last person that used it has left the building or is nowhere to be found please PM me the time and date of the incident and I will ban them from the woodshop for 15-30 days.
This has gone on for way too long and needs to stop now before we all lose this place because of the actions of a few.
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