I get what you are saying, you don’t have to follow rules if anyone else can get away with the rule. I get it.
This is wrong, if you agreed you would follow them. Instead, you only agree if we hit everyone with them. There is a difference there. I clean up after myself and other in the woodshop when I use the woodshop. I don’t look at the mess in the woodshop and go, perfect it is already messy, don’t have to clean up after myself today.
Nick is right. While I’ve been absent from the space for a while I have spent entire hours cleaning the shop while my Multicam jobs are running without another soul in sight. I’ve actually cleaned a tool, went and sat down, and had someone come up to exclaim it’s FINALLY clean only to leave their friggin mess behind them. The only thing I haven’t done in there is empty the dust collection because I physically cannot and I don’t even use that area other than that one tool. A la Terrance, it gets really old, really fast but most people have the good grace to feel ashamed when they are called out about it and stop.
I think the argument is not that others shouldn’t be held accountable - your past history just made it easy to deduce that some of it might be your mess [and should be held accountable for that].
The other big question/concern brought up in the thread is that you have [apparently] been reminded several times to please clean up after yourself… It seems that your expectation is that since there is an existing mess, adding to it won’t hurt anyone. I don’t think anyone really enjoys cleaning up after others - but in our environment it will be inevitable; the only way to minimize it is to try and get people to behave properly. When teaching Woodshop Basics, I would ask the class to please treat the tools/room like they belonged to my father - if you didn’t return them in “pristine” condition it wasn’t likely you would get to use them next time. I also would ask you [and anyone using the space] to remind people that you’ve observed leaving a mess to clean up after themselves - it is a shared space, we should be “excellent” to one another.
It is beyond frustrating when you come in and have to spend most of your available time cleaning up a tool before you can use it, or looking for a tool that isn’t put back in its place. The more people doing the right thing - the more time everyone has to actually get work done.
To quote @mblatz:
Chris, remember there are cameras and while it is a PITA to review them, I did just that. There were not 14 people that same night … there were 3: gray shirt who made a mess at the router and vacuumed it up about 1 AM, red shirt who used primarily sanders and doesn’t seem to have made much of a mess anywhere even though he was there for many hours, and light blue who came in after you left to use the large bandsaw and lathe. He does make a mess at the lathe and cleans it up, he has to move your stuff off the large bandsaw before using it.
I suspect if you sat down and watched yourself … you’d be surprised at what you do. Simple example: you look for a wrench to change the spindle sander drum, open the router cabinet to get a wrench from there, don’t put that wrench back, and leave the cabinet doors open the rest of the night. One simple example, but you do similar things frequently … get, use, lay down, go to next thing …
You work primarily at night. You have at best an incomplete idea about how often someone is asked or at least given “the look” to clean-up after themselves during the day … but it happens.
Stop excusing yourself by what others do or don’t do. You are one incredibly busy beaver of a maker who works long night hours many days a week. Given the charitable resources you consume as a beneficiary of the non-profit organization, start being an example for other to follow instead of a target for spitballs. Or go get your own shop space, buy your own tools and do it your way. You just don’t get to do it your way at DMS.
At least now you are on record that:
If I were you, I’d at least pretend this a 3rd strike and act accordingly.
Thank you for taking the time to review tapes. It is very frustrating for other members to come in to find huge messes, and it is completely unfair to think that someone else can clean up for you. Let’s all be adults.
We all need to use the Golden Rule on cleaning up after ourselves
If you dont want to spend a half hour or more cleaning up someone else s mess before you can work, don t ask them to clean up yours
At home I am not good about cleaning up my work area, but I do my best to clean up after myself
at the space and I am legally blind
Hey all,
Just want to throw out a thoughts on Shop cleanliness, etc…
I’d like to think we have a chance of improving overall shop self hygiene by clarifying expectations and reminding users regularly of those expectations.
One of the chief ones I’d like to see more often is a “Clean as you go” emphasis.
Example - I was in the shop early a while back and a guy I’ve seen there a few times was using several tools and not cleaning up. Bandsaw, Planer, Sanders, etc… At the end of his night he did a pretty good job of policing his mess. In the meantime I still had to clean dust and debris to use them.
Would it make sense to make a bullet point list of shop hygiene expectations and email it to all of those with wood shop permissions? Could we require a reply? Could we send it quarterly?
Would it help raise awareness of the expectations?
That said - I know I don’t sweep the area around my lathe as often as I should when roughing bowls - I also know I make a dang mess! Mea Culpa!
Recap of thread,
M: Hey there is a mess in the woodshop and it looks the messes C has left multiple times.
C: Yeah those are my messes, but you can’t do anything about it unless you are going to do the same to the other 14 people.
B: I checked the tapes, it was only C that made messes during the period.
C: (Thinking) Crap, I can’t post anymore, they just realized I was the other 14 people
What happens next?
Aren’t you the member who protests the use of Talk to shame other members?
And I think you missed the “It won’t happen again!” in the recap … which is very key point.
Lol,
You must have confused me with someone else. I feel shame definitely has a place, as does humor.
So @bertberaht how many times can you say you won’t do something and continue to do it, before that is an issue for you. This is what @mblatz also explained.
My post puts near the bottom of the thread the come away from this. This is a pattern we see often at DMS. I don’t have to clean up, because I can say the place was already a mess and hope that no one ever checks the tape. Thanks for checking the tape Bert.
I think @bertberaht was likely commenting on/pointing out the unnecessariness (word? it should be!) of continuing to pile on at this point.
The catch is that @Chris_Fazio never said he really agreed with anything in this thread. He was sarcastic and non-genuine in his responses through out the thread. He lied, he made excuses and he was found out for it.
He actually never even said he wouldn’t do it again. Here is the quote with context and highlighting to show the obvious sarcasm.
He is talking about being even less helpful in the quote above, as he isn’t talking about his actions, but the actions of others. If you think I’m just reading into this here is the later statement.
He is snowing you guys and you are praising him for it. Wake up, take action against the habitual violator that you have not only found, but is in no way willing to follow our rules.
The mess has been identified. Apparently so has the person(s) involved. This instance is therefore resolved.
The thread has devolved into esoteric debate not particularly germane to this specific instance.
For those of you who love to debate, please feel free to open a new thread proposing specific solutions to the ongoing general problem of members having to clean up after each other.