Unsafe at Any Speed - Vehicle and Driver Safety Discussion

I think you have that backwards. You can go back and show that tax receipts were greater than expenditures. It was widely reported at the time, and it’s extremely well documented from newspapers and writings from the time. Hell, even Cato has a paper talking about how it wasn’t Clinton that was responsible for the budget surplus. (Implying that even ultra-conservative Cato is forced to acknowledge the surplus)

I am sorry, but you can’t bend history to fit your world view. It happened, there was a surplus in cash.

When we get conflicting information like this, it is upon us as citizens to understand why the numbers don’t line up, and what factors we don’t understand went into those numbers.

In this case, I do suspect it is the treasury taking future liability into account immediately. While some shady accountants do play games with numbers, in other cases, totally legitimate accounting practices can seem to be intentionally obfuscating things when that is not the case. I’ve come to appreciate just how complex accounting is, and I have more respect for it as a tool to understand and control complicated data rather than a way to get “hard facts”.

Nope I don’t have it backwards. There are all kinds of accounting games you can play with revenue and expenses. But your creditors are certain to insist you account for your debt to them.

Time for a moderator to split this to a new “Off Topic” topic! :slight_smile:

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No your wrong. Future liabilities are in excess of 150 trillion dollars, or about ten times the national debt. The difference was the Clinton’s weren’t including the debt service costs in their calculation of expenditures-- which is as I said a shell game. They spent more then they took in like everyone since Hoover.

So did this last, tangential bit here get moved to a different thread?

I ask instead of looking because I can’t decide whether I’d actually want to find it. On one hand, I don’t slow down with the rest of traffic when driving by accident scenes, so I feel like I’ve earned enough karma to want to watch. On the other, as an erstwhile high school government teacher (you can tell because we use words like “erstwhile”), reading this discussion and thinking that people may actually think there was accurate or useful information presented somewhere in there makes me cry a little inside. (Probably more than a little.) #moraldilemma

Not sure what you are doubting, but facts are not debatable.

The myth that Clinton had a surplus is widely reported and based upon accounting games.

If you look at National debt data from the treasury here
https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/histdebt/histdebt.htm

Which is reported by fiscal year you can see a small reduction in the national debt between September 1999 and September 2000. So a reduction, right?

Not so fast. If you look at the more detailed monthly data you find an increase in the National Debt from January 1999 to January 2000… Just like every other year since Hoover and the Great Depression start… The monthly data is available from here

https://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/mspd/mspd.htm

January 1999 $5,610,117,000,000
January 2000. $5,711,285,000,000

What causes this difference? Well it appears that the Treasury department chose to shift the payment of National debt service in 2000 till AFTER September 2000. Why? Well, can’t point to a memo stating this, but a cynic would say it was because the Clinton administration wanted to lie to the public and claim they had balanced the budget.

And despite the data prooving otherwise being readily available, people still choose to believe the lie…

So how did this thread go from vehicle safety to the national debt?

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I’d respond with the acronym “WA” but then I’d probably get called out for it :slight_smile:

Because the government regulations are NOT about safety but rather about revenue generation. The original premise that a vehicle was ‘unsafe’ was used to create legislation that allowed the collection of revenue…

What Walter said and the same way “Talk” causes posts to stray from a simple post or question to the length of a metric inch etc.

I’d say the answer to “how did we get from vehicle safety to national debt” is “through the cudgel of overgeneralization that is typically swung by people who think the democratically defined rule of law is somehow equivalent to oppression.” Anything that forces me to live by a law I don’t like, you see, is a “game” or a “fraud” – whether that’s the “game” of setting and using a consistent accounting calendar that, gawd forbid, doesn’t align to January and so “confuses me” enough (aka: gives me enough excuse) to juuuust squeeze in a conspiracy theory regarding one of the most painfully, over-data-shared agencies of the federal government, or it’s the “fraud” of regulations which have cut per-capita vehicle deaths by 80% since the creation of the associated regulatory agency (the NHTSA, created by a law signed 10 months after the publishing of the book).

See, here’s the really dumb thing about “regulation increases revenue:” and to whom, exactly, do you think that money goes? Can anyone point to a government official that is paid by commission? Anyone that gets a percent cut of revenue, so they’re upselling your traffic ticket - “would you like deferred adjudication with that? Thanks for your order!” to bump up revenue?

Salaries are not tied to revenue in government – which is unsurprising, because the government is basically the largest nonprofit corporation in the country. Out of every penny of revenue added, exactly 0% of that direct funding goes to somebody’s dividend, or a percent increase in salaries or benefits. It goes back into the company – which is in the business, in this case, of providing us public services. Every penny of that “revenue machine” of regulation? WE GET IT ALL BACK.

Well, I guess you could say if you violate the regulation, you don’t directly get it all back – public services paid by revenue are something you get, but so does the guy beside you and the guy beside him. Fair enough. But you know what? You should be paying for that. I should be getting a cut of the revenue you just “generated” for the government. Because, and this is the nifty thing about regulation: when you violate them, typically you are costing me money. Those regulations ensure even baseline playing fields across particular industries, and if you comply with them, guess what, gub’mint doesn’t “generate any income” – you just comply with the same requirements as everyone else in your industry, and nobody suffers competitive disadvantage. But try to game the system, sneak a little something by to water down or cut a corner on that requirement – all of the sudden, I’m getting an inferior product and you, due to the illicit competitive advantage you gained, retain your price due to the rest market being bound to it and pocket the profits.

Regulations only “generate revenue” to any significant degree if you violate them. There is value to ensuring that there is a baseline of requirement for product safety, in evening the playing field by making sure one can’t “compete” on how many kids choke on your product or houses are set on fire by your product’s flammability. Violate those baselines, and damn right, you should be “generating revenue” for the nonprofit that I own, along with a third of a billion other citizens of my country. You’re breaking our rules. Breaking our rules means we have to pay the socioeconomic costs of your laziness and greed – every family that loses their house, every person overcrowding an ER that can’t actually cover their way but isn’t thinking about that when they’re entering the ER because they’re busy dying from asbestos/heavy metal/take your pick poisoning, every regulatory decision you decide you’re too much of a Special Flower™ for costs me and my country money. Don’t complain when we send you the bill.

Makes me think back to Dale Earnhardt and his protesting, fighting against, and refusal of the very device that would’ve saved his redneck life.

Personal choice – it’s a good thing. Just don’t expect me to pay for anyone’s hospital bills.

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Yes, the self-weeding feature of the gene pool is an awesome one.

At least his son uses the HANS device. His concussion and vision problems from his last wreck are far better than death by internal decapitation.

Ah, but since we are forced to pay for people’s Hospital bills we have a reason to deprive them of personal choice don’t we? This is one of the many arguments that get made to justify Government involvement in ‘safety’ issues… It has also been used to try and force fast food places to stop ‘biggie sizing’ those lunches…

Actually, death is usually the least cost outcome for such scenarios. If you severely injure someone, you (or your insurance company) are likely to end up paying more then if you actually kill them…

Personally, I think letting natural selection work is best for the species…

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That is a very cynical view.

Everyone has their blind spot. The CEO of Segway drove his right off the grand canyon. I’m sure he felt that he knew enough not to do that.

We don’t get to be experts on everything, and I’m glad that there are people who are smart in areas that I am not helping me make good decisions on things I know nothing about – and helping the market make decisions that help me stay safe when I might not know any better.

Just within what I am good at, electronic design, there are thousands of little regulations to comply with. Yeah, it’s annoying and expensive, but looking at the regulations, NOT complying with them is actually pretty scary. They are only somewhat conservative… and the failure mode is severe electrical shock or death. I can’t imagine a world where UL/ETL wasn’t a thing – as cheap as everyone wants to be, that’s a big standard-holder on safety and quality in electronics.

aren’t UL/ETL “independent testing laboratories”?
i.e., not governmental?

Segway + Grand Canyon. Who would have thought that would be a bad idea?!?!?!

I agree with Walter: I’d like life to be a bit more lethal, as this would help weed out the idiots. Our society has effectively stopped natural selection of the fittest organisms.

Idiocracy is now.

We are not talking about people ‘helping’, we are talking about people FORCING others to do what they consider safe.

You are forced to wear a seatbelt
You are forced to drive a more expensive car with ‘safety features’
You are forced to pay tickets when you speed (and they decide to boost their revenue by actually enforcing the law).

The number of these place where people are ‘helping’ is a real issue.

When you start hiring employees and have to deal with those additional rules, regulations, and fees then we can talk about how reasonable you think they are.

BTW, you do have your Texas business license don’t you? You don’t actually do your design work from home, do you? (If you do, you are likely violating several regulations)…

Oh, and those electronics safety regulations will do nothing to protect you when/if some idiot desides to take a bath with your product and electrocutes himself. You will still likely be found liable…