Meh, his methodology is incomplete. The pocket hole joints were only tested with no-glue, and one type of glue. Mortise-and-tenon joints were not tested with a “no glue” control. If I were judging a science fair he’d get a B at best.
If you want to teach a joinery class, teach a joinery class (honorarium). Then maybe turn your students loose for a week and have 'em come back with their test pieces for a destructive testing event.
4 Likes
Thank you.
*disregard, need 20 characters to say thank you. 
2 Likes
Soooo, am i missing something here. Sounds like you didnt qualify for the honorarium and got your feelings sorta hurt by the verbiage.
Last i checked theres nothing stopping you from posting a social meetup at the space to test your theories. I WILL BE IN THE WOODSHOP AREA ON X DATE AT X TIME to test joinery strengths, whoever shows up theres your informal class. If it’s not about the money and you feel folks are being rude, then avoid the HA’s altogether. To teach what you feel is valid knowledge to those that are interested.
All this time you’ve been upset you could of used that energy towards your social meet-up and be knee deep in joinery by now. No one was rude to you man, you just had this great idea and someone else didnt share your passion, doesnt mean they are rude. Do your meetup post your attendance data, change your verbiage and then see what response you get.
I HELD A SOCIAL MEETUP ON JOINERY AND THE RESPONSE WAS GREAT, I WOULD LOVE TO HOLD A FORMAL CLASS TO CONTINUE TO SHARE MY KNOWLEDGE TO THOSE THAT SHARE THE SAME PASSION AS MYSLEF.
Get the class and call it whatever the hell you want in your class make a sign JOINERY SMACKDOWN in here.
Work with the system and thicken your skin man, get back to teaching 
4 Likes
Sometimes one needs to reword a class
Let s say I post a class in the Moh s hardness scale of gemstone
I would expert that to not be accepted
Now if I was to add and how that impacts their use in jewelry, it might
get a go ahead
If I added and how this effects finishing methods and how you can check the hardness
of an unknown stone, it would have a lot better chance
1 Like
From your proposal? I don’t understand what you’re saying. Is your proposal to build 21 joints yourself, or have others bring them? And then the whole thing about constructive rejection had nothing to do with you, but the reviewers. I’m not sure how that was unclear.
Reading on here loses you supporters not gaining them. And if it’s truly not about the money, then why not let it lie.
That does sound more like an event to be Ava I don’t even know what I am talking about. And they didn’t say you couldn’t do it just that it’s not education geared. So what is doing you from doing it- the $50? I thought you said it wasn’t about the money but the rudeness. Wait-
oh that sounds bad.
Take it easy man. Your description definitely makes it sound like a competition not a class. So it seems they followed the rules. If you want the money rework the class.
But you don’t really want help do you?
2 Likes
Also in your railing against rudeness, I was in a class with you where you interrupted the instructor repeatedly and argued everything he said with everyone to the basic points he was making. It was so distracting for me who was trying to learn the basics. And it clearly made the poor instructor nervous.
If you felt like you knew it all already, there is no point in attending a class, sitting in back, and harassing the speaker, who was clearly nervous to be up there in the first place.
I thought that was pretty rude. But I let it ride. I told my wife when I went home the first night that I might have to talk to you about it. I didn’t know you then, or even really now, but that was my first impression. I think some of your comments on here certainly aren’t going to be used as examples of civil discourse any time soon either.
I’m sorry you feel like you’ve been mistreated. If it’s not about the money, then it appears to be about what, validation? There are some people on here who said they might be interested in attending something like this
If you are being rejected repeatedly, at least allegedly I see two possible reasons
-your proposals are loading in some areas as others have pointed out
-maybe it’s your personality. I don’t know you could be a great guy, but the only two interactions we’ve had was your personal attack on my comment and those classes we had together.
I don’t know. I don’t want to be engaged in a way of words on here. For what it’s worth I will make a specific point of not returning to this thread so if you respond to attack i won’t be listening.
Also, think about what kind of response did you expect on here? Masses of talk users agreeing with you that this was a truly massive Injustice on an unprecedented scale and committing themselves to showing up to the next committee meeting with pitchforks and torches ready to stage a coup!?
I don’t think you considered the possibility of people doing anything but that, because even people who agree with you on one point or another are shut down. Talk is not a right wing echo chamber, the will be people who disagree with you on here and they are entitled to do so.
I think the real value I’ve found in Talk is asking for help with something- some project or some issue. That’s when the really great things people do come out. You missed that. You didn’t ask for help on getting classes approved, you just railed that the system is out to get you and…rude.
Good luck in the future with your classes. You’ll probably have to let some of this blow over before you submit again. You may be a great teacher, I don’t know, and the joints class might have been really useful to the woodworking crowd. And you mentioned getting honoraria before, so to take three rejections in a row and blow up at that isn’t super productive. I would have rewritten your proposal and resubmitted it. Make it less about breaking things she more about learning. I don’t want to get into the word choice of “smackdown” because I’ve seen that before, but I must admit it did shift me towards the negative side right off the bat. You can argue it’s fine, and whatever, the the connotations that I carry with me are immutable by you. I had mental imagery you things being smashed, with a sheen of science to it. Only at the end, very briefly did I see mention of a test apparatus. That might have made it less about smashing things and maybe slightly educational. However you also mentioned that everyone bring a joint and you will compete. This sounds like your target audience already knows how to do joints and already know (particularly yourself) which is best. It almost seems that the “smackdown” is the result of an argument you had with someone on the point in the woodshop, a possibility further supported by your mentioning of specific viewpoints held by yourself and others.
These are my thoughts take them or leave them. If you don’t want other people’s thoughts then don’t post to a forum. It’s called a forum for a reason.
Downvote downvote downvote
8 Likes
@Nick This is a WONDERFUL reply ( “Slowly walking into the storm.” ) and a terrific benchmark for how to “be excellent”. I have not yet made it to the end of the tread to see the resolution (if any); but I had to call out a shining example of conflict resolution and the type of discourse that should encouraged. Thank you.
1 Like
The class had 7 types of joints done with PVC glue, epoxy, and hide glue. None of the joints suggested where dry. I’ve already done two classes which discussed joints and we have cut several of these in class in the woodshop, so the students where invited to bring their own pieces to test against the 21 which I planned to build. I enjoy class participation, and if suspect if some joint is going to be stronger than a Mortis and Tenon, then it’s going to be something like a beefy dovetail and some other joint which is successfully at not carrying it’s weight on a fastener. As someone mentioned, some of the glues need a bunch of time to cure, hence this is the ‘follow up class’ to test/ prove what has been presented and hopefully help students better understand how and when different types should be used.
When we had the other classes, the question which keeps coming up was ‘is which stronger’, or is #1 as strong and #2 or ‘how much’ stronger is #1 than #2. The 21 samples I planned to bring are all joints I would use on projects- no dry joints; but I honestly don’t know which adhesive would be strongest in a Mortis and Tenon joint. I have never seen this type of test with hide glue and epoxy thrown into the mix. Part of doing tests is to discover and prove, as we know that everyone at Makerspace has an opinion, and many don’t have any basis or proof.
The pocket screw test will likely die at a much lower weight, but they are certainly easier to create. I have one joint/ adhesive combination which I wanted to keep as a ‘ringer’, but it’s got a good change at being the strongest joint in the room and my guess is in our discussions, no one will think of it until they see it. It actually has a connection to another class I have taught, but many people wouldn’t relate to wood.
I may not be the best teacher at Makerspace, nor may I even be a good teacher; but I do put a significant level of effort into my classes, and I have received positive feedback. As you can detect from my posts, it pisses me off to have someone which has never attended my classes to tell me that my classes have ‘no educational value’.
I also got pissed because when I asked why, I was attacked; and to this stage I still have no explanation as to why. It’s the rudeness. It wasn’t one class, it was three; and then I received an email that told me that I needed to submit all my proposals as events because none of my classes where going to be approved. After three rejections in a row, but response involves a horse.
I will continue to teach because the people who come to my classes and my friends at Makerspace are awesome. I think the rude people need to stay away because they clearly don’t share my attitude. I also think their should be some transparency; hence the reason for starting this post.
Some of the advise in here is positive and 'm certainly not upset with the world, but then I get unsigned emails telling me that every class I submit will be rejected, then I take offense at that.
First off, my comment about dry joints and experimental methodology was directed at the woodgears.ca link posted by another member, not at your class. Unless that’s your website.
I understand you’re upset, but this appears that you’re saying the only people who can determine your class’s eligibility for honorarium are people who have attended your classes. My, how elitist of you.
1 Like
Joe,
You are talking in circles and putting yourself down more than anyone in this thread. I sent you a PM, I would like to work with you to resubmit your class. The HAs judge your class based on the description of the class and not much else. If there is issue in the description it will be denied. I believe we can solve this together, rather than continuing to toil in this talk thread.
1 Like
They are in the process of writing a well-defined set of rules for honorarium. I think that this will resolve many issues. I see legitimate concerns with your description of the class as submitted. Your further explanation on this page leads me to believe that this is a legitimate teaching endeavor that was well thought out and would provide information that is directly applicable to project designs. That leads me to believe that the issue is with the description you provided.
You have to remember that there is no possible way that Honorarium Auditors could take every class with every instructor. They are evaluating the class on the description you provide. If the description does not clearly present what you will be teaching, then auditors cannot evaluate the class on its merit.
If you work under the assumption that whoever is making decision doesn’t understand what you are doing, I think you will have better luck with your honorarium submissions.
With regard to the rudeness you perceive, remember that text doesn’t convey tone very well. The system has a small space for responses to honorarium requests, and HAs have to sort through many submissions on their own time. It may seem rude, but they are doing this out of their own generosity, and they are trying to maximize the service they provide to the space.
2 Likes
There where three classes which where rejected. One of the classes was an exact repeat of a previous class- same description, same everything.
If the issue is the description, I’m fine which that. I’m only asking that when I ask why, I get an answer; but instead I’ve been attacked. I received an email yesterday promising that every class I submit will be rejected. I’m not sure what your definition of ‘Being Excellent’, but the person who sent me the unsigned email and several others need to just find themselves a better place to hang out…
You haven’t been attacked instead, you’ve been attacked in addition to receiving helpful feedback from several members. Additionally, you seemed to fixate on it rather than working towards your goal and ignoring the nonconstructive criticism.
Please remember that, though your class description may have been cut and paste from a class that received honorarium, it may have been evaluated by a different HA. Or standards could have changed over time due to others abusing the system. It is unlikely that anyone denied Honorarium out of spite because they didn’t like you or a previous submission.
If it were me, this is how I would word the description:
This class is designed to evaluate the relative merit of various woodworking joints in a systematic and repeatable way. I have prepare three samples each of seven joint types to evaluate and encourage students to bring their own joints for DESTRUCTIVE testing.
The information gained here can help students to design stronger structures or choose the simplest joint that will meet their design requirements. Data assembled in this class could be used to engineer structures for specific loads.
(Insert dimensional requirements for student joints.)
I know this is a bit dry, but that is my writing style. Feel free to use it as is, make it your own, or revise your previous submission. Or decide that it isn’t worth submitting for honorarium in the future and instead charge a material fee. I strongly recommend saving receipts if you go this route. You shouldn’t have to outlay considerable sums in order to teach others, but most public school teachers decide to do just that every year.
2 Likes
Remember we now have about 65-70+ classes/events per week.
No one on HA has attacked you?! Yes the rejection may have been terse but not insulting. What was the source of “every class I submit will be rejected”? That would be uncool and may be grounds for a formal complaint.
3 Likes
Take @Nick offer and fix your description.
Your getting the attention and assistance you so desired at the beginning of this thread, yet you’re still reiterating why you got upset. We get it, you were offended and you’re upset…
Neither of these feelings create joints…it creates a void in every ones life who comes back and reads the same complaint you’ve stated 8 times over.
Se how irritating that is,…wait for it…
6 Likes