Tagging @board_of_directors ought to get to “whoever”, but apprently doesn’t…
@Kriskat30 @dr_cee @Diplomat @Photomancer and @LukeStrickland ought to get “whomever” tagged, though, right?
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Just to throw some more hearsay into the mix, the reason that I heard that we couldn’t have a paint booth is because we’d have to keep a log. Apparently, the “don’t care” limit is about 1 car’s worth of painting. After that, City of Carrollton (maybe???) wants a log that can be reviewed. And, given our issues with enforcing much of anything across the board, 24/7, an accurate log wouldn’t be a possiblity.
Maybe if we got the shop steward, but then we’d have to be able to lock up the paint booth when that person wasn’t on site.
Sorry to not be able to provide a specific rule/law/code.
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Spraying with rattle cans vs a paint booth is a big commitment. @Robert_Davidson did lots of research in systems that could track usage in a paint booth environment.
Here is the Email I received from the TCEQ which is the responsible for the laws.
@trurobertson did an accurate recap above it comes down to tracking.
Personally I am not sure why people think it is impossible to track consumption. At it’s simplest form it’s a log. If a paintbooth was going to happen I had planned to use an automated paint mixer and require everyone use it this would track all usage of paint.
It’s also important to remember these regulations don’t just apply to spray paint.
Finally even if we go over the de minimis requirements it needs to be tracked and responsibly sprayed and disposed of it’s not some sky is falling regulations it requires tracking and minor modification to process vs what we have now is an outright ban.
"Hello,
As per our conversation this afternoon, there are a couple of authorization mechanisms available for the paint booth at your Makerspace. TCEQ permitting for surface coating is largely dependent on the proposed usage rates and the application method.
From our discussions, it appears as though the painting will likely be covered as a de minimis source, which does not require registration. A de minimis facility is a facility or source that meets the condition of one or more of the paragraphs of the De Minimis Rules below.
(http://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/readtac%24ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=30&pt=1&ch=116&rl=119) I have also attached the De Minimis Facilities List, which includes manual application of coatings (e.g., rollers, brushes, and spray bottles) and aerosol-propelled organic liquids (e.g., spray paint).
30 TAC § 116.119 De Minimis Facilities and Sources
a) Facilities or sources that meet the conditions of one or more of the paragraphs of this subsection are considered by the commission to be de minimis, which means that registration or authorization prior to construction is not required:
(1) categories of facilities or sources included on the list entitled “De Minimis Facilities or Sources;”
(2) facilities or sources at a site which, in combination, use the following materials at no more than the rate prescribed in subparagraphs (A) - (F) of this paragraph:
(A) cleaning and stripping solvents, 50 gallons per year;
(B) coatings (excluding plating materials), 100 gallons per year;
© dyes, 1,000 pounds per year;
(D) bleaches, 1,000 gallons per year;
(E) fragrances (excluding odorants), 250 gallons per year;
(F) water-based surfactants/detergents, 2,500 gallons per year;
If for some reason, the coating usage rates are above the thresholds listed in the De Minimis rules, an authorization will be required through a Permit By Rule (PBR § 106.433) or a New Source Review (NSR case-by-case) permit. Each of the authorization types has its own requirements; I can provide more information about these registrations if you determine that the operations will not be covered as de minimis.
I would also encourage you to contact the Regional Office with any questions related to enforcement or recordkeeping. They may be reached via phone at 817.588.5800 or https://www.tceq.texas.gov/assistance. Should you have any questions, please also feel free to contact me via phone or email. Thanks!"
Attached File
De Minimis Facilities List.pdf (73.0 KB)
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I think I’m missing something. If we are well below the threshold, why do we have a complete moratorium in regards to aerosols or whatever. I just see that we dont have to register, nothing says we cant be using rattle cans. I’m sure you know quite a bit more about this than I do from your discussions with them, I’m trying to fill in the blanks.
It’s a great question what I believe to be happening is something on the local Carrollton level and I am speaking from the state level. What I believe is on one hand is city fire code while on another hand we are talking about the TCEQ regulation. The TCEQ absolutely allows rattle cans - the city of Carrollton maybe not. Though I would love to see the regulation they are using as plenty of companies use spray paint in day to day business.
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I am guessing-cum-extrapolating based on previous posts, discussions, and real life comments over past months and few years. But my thought is that this is all rattle can related because we have had so many people who go out into parking area and spray, sometimes well away from our parking area since those are where most complaints come from, and then neighbors or whomever get drift on their car, or believe they might get drift on their car, and call whomever (landlord, city) to complain.
I am pretty sure that we could implement a generally acceptable, small, indoor, limited tent-with-extraction/filter solution that would pass muster with both small-use members (e.g. a coat of spray finish on a small board, or some Cermark on a thermos, or some fixative on a chalk drawing) and City folks if we explained it correctly, but since – like almost everything else here – it would get overused, misused, abused, broken-and-not-reported-and-then-someone-would-just-go-ahead-and-use-it-anyway, etc., so that a decision was probably made to just say “fckit, why put up with the headache”.
I’d be glad to know if issues are significantly different from my understanding. But otherwise I think it’s likely a baby/bathwater thing, but in this case, it’s a kind of an ugly baby so…
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We are very likely to go over 100 gallons a year.
And even if we are only likely to approach that threshold, the burden would still be on DMS - both organizationally and the membership as a whole - to track, log, etc. to ensure we are compliant at the moment that we do cross that magical volume number. I haven’t been a member long, but I already know that communication, formalized processes, and individual accountability across the entire membership are not things that can be considered strengths for us.
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We have a hard enough time enforcing training on equipment where members cannot be bothered to even read the giant signs on the equipment.
Does anyone think we can come close to enforcing an auditable process for paint? We would have a hard time enforcing someone use the industrial paint mixer rather than spray without it.
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We could access control the area and compare logs to paint usage logs. Anyone appearing in the booth and not in the log would throw up red flags.
But it wouldn’t stop someone from listing a tiny amount of paint compared to what they actually use. Additionally we still catch people trying to bypass access controls regularly, which without actual employees means we have to know it happened first.
It at least provides us with an enforcement mechanism. Perhaps a weigh in, badge, weigh out, badge workflow could be utilized. Failing to weigh out could assume usage of all material.
This is what Robert’s thoughts were (and he appears to have done as much/more research on this as anyone)
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Again, this assumes we know how much was brought in and that a user actually put all of it on the scale We don’t have an employee being paid to sit there and check what goes in and out.
Having dealt with numerous members trying to get around controls, this isn’t something we want when it comes to a audit issue. it already happens enough that people don’t pay for laser / welding / 3d printing material, but that’s not a legal problem when it fails to happen.
which would be fine when we can enforce usage. However nothing stops someone from turning it on but mostly spraying their own stuff.
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Speaking theoretically, would this mixer shake rattle cans for us or would it mean a prohibition on rattle cans? It matters because of the sheer variety of colors available in spray can form buyable in small quantities.
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https://www.safetyservicescompany.com/topic/safety-school/who-is-covered-or-not-by-osha/
https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/standardinterpretations/1999-03-05
Makerspace is not a business.
If they bother to log at all, what incentive would there be to under report unless we charge per ounce used?
It is absolutely a business and is bonkers to think otherwise.
If you walk into the Galley there’s even a fancy little piece of paper on the wall from the state as part of our registrations. Should take a look at it sometime.
OSHA doesn’t apply to us because we do not have any employees on payroll (everyone is a volunteer, save the contractor book keeper but they don’t do anything that falls under OSHA or it’s the responsibility of their employer).
But just because OSHA doesn’t apply to us, doesn’t mean we aren’t a business. We engage in the trade of tool rentals, we sell merchandise and memberships, we have active users regularly
Regulations change as we increase usage. I can see someone trying to run a commercial painting thing that would possible trigger the limits.
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Ok so we do NOT fall under OSHA. Where’s the regulation about Paint? I was told it was an OSHA thing. Also, the TCEQ may similarly not have jurisdiction. I would kindly like to see someone with authority … like someone who is in permitting or connected with the state government that has actually authority explain the regulations and point out where we can obtain a copy. I don’t think this is an unreasonable request. I don’t mind restrictions but I also don;t think it unreasonable for me to ask why the restriction exists and why it applies.
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