New Pay to Play model

DMS General
#29

So I’m also a proponent of if someone volunteers X number of hours in a year, their dues for the next year should be free. Only a small percentage of people at a makerspace volunteer at all and even fewer volunteer as much as you are talking about. That top 1-5% of people shouldn’t have to pay dues because of how much of their time they invest at DMS. You’re a perfect example of what I’m talking about with this.

There’s a very fine balance between financially showing a teacher appreciation for teaching a class and teaching as part of what you live off of. Making $70-80/hour for a class (even if half goes to DMS) is kind of crazy. People will always find a way to milk a system no matter what it is. I took many 1 hour long scheduled classes in the old system where the teacher spent 10 minutes explaining something and then the class was over. Cha-ching! They just earned $50 for 10 minutes of teaching. :thinking: :roll_eyes:

#30

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

3 Likes
#31

There’s actually no comparison at all, as the first is how the space compensates for something, while the other is what the compensated party does with said compensation.

That’s like saying there is a fine balance between your job and a toilet bowl.

I guess it’s all how you look at it. (Or where you work)

How narcissistic would someone have to be to feel like they should have control over what someone elae does with the money they earned?

And saying that a person can only make money in an organization if they don’t need extra money to pay bills is socioeconomic discrimination in its purest form.

Outstanding job being excellent to each other. (Read: being excellent only to the wealthy)

2 Likes
#32

That isn’t at all what I’m saying! :face_with_raised_eyebrow: I don’t care how you use your money, but teaching at a makerspace shouldn’t be a gig job. If you want to earn a living teaching, then become a private teacher or go work at a for-profit makerspace or other business. Teaching at a makerspace should be about helping people get the skills they need to make on their own. Yes…give teachers something to show appreciation for their time, but this isn’t meant to be a consistent place of employment and a job. It’s not supposed to be a vein of regular/expected income over a long period of time. That’s what over extended the budget.

9 Likes
#33

What about a rule stating that no sign-off (i.e., required) classes can be taught in a committee’s area by “privately operating” instructors until ‘x’ free (with honorarium) classes are offered by that committee for that month?

Maybe crazy, I dunno. Just an idea.

ETA that I shouldn’t have said free. I know there are some required classes that collect a fee that goes to the committee for supplies, maintenance, etc. and that shouldn’t change.

6 Likes
#34

I’d like to see your source(s) information on this. The financials tell a different story: Repairs are classified in the consumable tooling category in quickbooks. Here is high level data from this category in the woodshop:

2016- $8,383.92
2017- $11,208.75
2018- $17,504.46
2019- $39,736.08

Anybody think woodshop consumable tooling has changed so much in one year to require $22,000 in extra funds? Mark, I think you took over in what, September of 2018? Oh, and $10,394.36 of the 2018 spending happened between September and the end of the year. The Great Training Experiment first appears in the January of 2019 woodshop meeting minutes.

3 Likes
Resignation of Woodshop Chairman
#35

I do not care nor am interested in politics I am seeing in this thread, but I do wish to address your tour question from my personal experience.

I am explaining it in the tours I give and have been since I started giving tours. I have been building the documentation for tour guides to also cover this. It all depends what someone is looking to do at DMS and I make that clear. With that being said, I also inform that essentially anything that’s a “consumable” in most cases have a cost. Filament, supplies in CA, lasers, etc.

I cannot speak on other tour guides, but I explain to the tours that we’re volunteer run and that sometimes life happens, value of our time changes, etc. I essentially tell them be prepared some classes may be free, some may be for cost, some may thrive and be taught for a while, then go away. Often the way I explain it is it all depends where DMS falls on an individual person’s priorities, value, time, etc.

With that being said I do have those that walk through the door and wonder what they can do to teach classes if they become knowledgeable about a “thing” or already know about a “thing”. I explain to them they have the option of running a class w/ honorarium or using another service such as EventBrite. I’m not going to coach them on which way to do it, but that there’s options.

3 Likes
#36

Actually, at this point an economics concept called “utils” come into play. Every person makes their own decision on the value that they receive, and whether or not that value is worth the cost. If the cost is too high for the perceived value, you have negative utils, and nobody buys. I remember being excited about Lance’s Etsy classes, which gave me quite a bit of valuable information, because the last person teaching Etsy had been charging $20/student. I was feeling broke, and didn’t participate in the $20 classes, although I do believe that there were quite a few students. $20 is, really, pretty affordable for the average fully-employed person.

So, if the cost gets too high, nobody takes those classes. At that point (and $20/person isn’t there), somebody should be taking note, and watching for the number of attendees. If an instructor isn’t getting a sufficient number of attendees, then they shouldn’t be approved for additional classes. I know that dumps this on the Honorarium Auditors, but it should be a minor problem. Not many here are (really) likely to charge so much that they won’t get the current requisite of 3. I know the stained glass classes are/were $50, but that’s for the glass. Pretty glass is expensive.

2 Likes
#37

But see – this is in large part one of the problems we’re having. For some things, we really do need a person who is willing to make teaching their full-time job. Woodshop is simply too big for volunteer labor to adequately train all the customers who just want to make a project. I do understand that we’re not (really) charging folks enough to cover a full time teacher. Putting the extra expense of paying for a teacher (and just compare to the classes taught by the for-profit place to see what a bargain we are) on the student. That makes the “customers” pay for what they’re getting, since it does seem to be the huge wash of short-term members that create the problem. They won’t be paying dues for years, so hit them for the cost of the classes WE need to help keep them from breaking the equipment.

And, don’t forget – Woodshop had to start charging a nominal amount to keep customers from registering for multiple classes just so that they had options.

3 Likes
#38

This is not that. A teacher has the ability to remove students through the calendar system. The 5 bucks per class used to go back to the committee.
Our multicam is also a very expensive class at $50 plus a $20 test out.
That money used to go toward fixing and maintaining a very expensive machine. Now that the instructor is using eventbrite, do you think the committee is getting any of that? Please explain what portion of that fee is being donated back to fix the machine.

1 Like
#39

So – the whole “honorarium vs student pay” thing is an enormous red herring when you consider “paying for tool time and wear and tear”.

If I teach a class for honorarium, DMS pays me money and allocates some funds they’ve already received to the committee. No extra money enters DMS.

If I teach a class that the students pay me for, no money leaves DMS. In this way of looking at it, I am benefitting DMS because they don’t pay me. DMS receives exactly the same amount of money in either scenario. Thusly, I am helping DMS fulfill their stated non-profit status by teaching classes, and the students are paying.

I’d have to go back and re-read my class to quote exactly, but a non-profit is supposed to make at least 50% of their income from the thing that they are providing – usually education. It’s perfectly legitimate to pay people for work performed. We are incredibly goofy to be a non-profit who doesn’t have ANY true employees.

I hate to keep bringing up the Dallas Craft Guild as an example, because I vastly prefer our model of charging. DCG charges a much smaller annual fee, which basically just gives you access to pay for things. They charge a much bigger fee for classes (although you get more teaching for that – closer to a semester), and you pay for any studio time you might want. They pay their instructors hourly, and it’s a decent hourly rate. Now, those instructors are “independent contractors”, not employees, so they just get a 1099-MISC, like instructors that receive over $600 in honorarium for the year.

Still – the idea that you can run a 2000 person organization on strictly unpaid volunteer labor is bogus.

3 Likes
#40

I mean, we are managing to make it work.

3 Likes
#41

Actually, no, we’re not. We are paying volunteers – the argument nowadays is more around how much we pay said volunteers. Granted, we’re only paying for teaching, but it is possible to get paid for something. Yeah, folks do all sorts of unpaid volunteer stuff. If we looked at what @Mrksls2 got, he was probably Damn Cheap for the amount of time he put into the Space above and beyond what he was getting for the classes. Affordable for us, no, but still a bargain.

4 Likes
#42

I was thinking more in terms of some of the other classes. I am unaware of anything specifically one way or the other regarding Multicam classes. Are you sure that the instructor doing these is doing them through Eventbrite? I realize you probably have the ways to check that – I don’t.

It was the $20 classes that probably were free previously that started this thread, so that’s what I’ve been holding as my example in my discussion.

For me, I teach in 4 areas, so each area gets one class a month on honorarium. MIG Welding costs students $10 for materials. If I found that we had need for a 2nd class, I’d drop the $10 into the “pay DMS” slot. I’ve got a Square, so I’m not trying to figure out Eventbrite.

As a matter of fact, I’ve got my eyes closed and my fingers crossed for February. I’ve taught 4 classes already that were marked for honorarium, but that was all before the BoD decision for 4. Largely, that was because the 1st two were for Sewing, and I’ve had trouble getting sewing classes to “make”. I put up the 2 welding classes before I’d had a chance to see if I had 2 full (and full attendance) sewing classes, so I went ahead and marked both welding classes for honorarium, figuring that it would come out in the wash if it turned out I had 4 classes that “made”. Ceramics got the short stick – I charged the students.

I’m not sure what you meant by “ability to remove students”. Classes weren’t making because too many people had signed up who didn’t intend to show up. Are you suggesting that the instructor should have reviewed the rest of his classes for the no-shows and yanked their attendance in the later classes? I’ve not particularly had that issue, so I wouldn’t know how to do that.

#43

I do, since the former chair explicitly told me he had been stockpiling committee funds because he didn’t like dealing with the board either. Something like $45k was sitting in the woodshop budget, and with the two or three classes that were scheduled each week, that took a really long time to acrue. Factor that in with the months long wait to get access to the woodshop and that we had several hundred members needing access and it isn’t hard to see why the costs jumped up so much.
Also, during my first period as procurement officer, I was told by chairs and board members alike to file everything bought for the woodshop under consumable tooling since it all wears out anyway.
You should not try to put your busiest and slowest committees under the same management model unless you’re willing to scale every aspect of that model commensurate with committee asset usage and growth.

1 Like
#44

What does the amount in the woodshop budget have to do with the rate you started blowing through cash? Let me make it easy for you: nothing. One has nothing to do with the other.

Woodshop’s capabilities in 2019 vs 2018 did not change significantly. They certainly didn’t double. Under your steady hand and brilliant training, the amount of money it consumed, just in consumable tooling, did. Tell all the stories you want, but if you think that’s good management, you’re just… wrong.

2 Likes
#45

So which one is it? Was I earning too much for the committee (which is directly linked to how much I earned for myself) or was I spending too much? I remember the saying that used to float around of “if you want more tools, teach more classes”. I would think the committees who earn the most should naturally be able to spend the most. While the capabilities may not have doubled, the average age of the tools was reduced by more than half. Interesting how you like to steer discussions with incomplete facts.
New combo sander
New drill press
New spindle sander
New bandsaw
New bandsaw
New router table
New router lift table
New router motor
New tablesaw
Several thousand dollars in replacement motors
Just to name a few of the ways my “gaming the system” and “careless spending” has “damaged” the woodshop.
When I came on as vice chair I tried to help with the class backlog as best as I could, but the machines kept breaking. Many needed major repair or replacement. I fixed the problem that was presented to me. I challenge you to find a member who has put in more work (paid or volunteer) than I to run a single committee.
Would any ACTUAL accountants or economists care to chime in? Maybe a member of the DnO who actually uses the woodshop? Boots on the ground intel is always more reliable than ignorant orders barked from the control tower. Being in a position of authority doesn’t make you right. It just makes you look worse when you’re wrong. :wink:

5 Likes
#46

I just want to apologize to the members for my comments and outlandish statements in my response to this original post. It’s NOT in my nature to be as selfish as I have been here recently, and I do recognize this… I’m just going through some tough times right now. I’ll get get over it and in turn become a good hearted person again. Peace

6 Likes
#47

True Beth, glass used and tools that constantly walk off will have to be restocked. Jen gives back to GlassWorks 20 of every 50 she receives. Her classes usually have good attendance.

3 Likes
#48

I’m with Mark on this…He could be working his own projects rather than certifying people in the woodshop. Railing on teachers for making money for their time is BS.

@jmeinel @agvet

Guys I get that it can be expensive to take classes and it seems like the teachers are raking it in, but seriously…How many members can even state they sweep up after themselves or heaven forbid try to clean a little more than the mess they made? Even $150/ hr is a very fare rate for teaching, if the teacher is a truly skilled at what they are teaching and the student walks away with knowledge and signed off on the tool(s)…Bottom line is, if class cost pisses you off teach for free and guess what eventually supply/demand works itself out…Until you are loaded up teaching can we really complain about class cost?

If every member truly volunteered by cleaning or repairing for 15 minutes after they complete whatever they were doing at the space that visit, the space would get better by the day…So if anyone is bitching about teachers making cash for teaching people…We should see you teaching FREE classes and/or cleaning, more than just the mess you made, before you leave.

I try to encourage the desired volunteer behavior by example…I don’t teach, but I usually try to schedule enough time to sweep and take out a trash can or two before I leave EVERY visit. If you find that not to be the case, call me out. I am usually the guy in a black hat, grey shirt, and safety glasses…Yeah I own some grey…

Side note…There is a guy Paul (??), he teaches Lathe classes, who is a kick-ass guy and helped another guy Tom in the woodshop a few days ago cut some 5"x5"x48" timber on the bandsaw…It was truly awesome to see a member helping a stranger, also a member. Just to be helpful…Truly the behavior we should be praising and replicating.

10 Likes