I had a nice chat with a lady at the regional TABC office, and according to her, we are definitely outside of the TABC licensing requirements as long as we are only brewing for personal production/use.
At the federal level, it looks like we would fall under a brew-on-premise location, which is not licensed or regulated by them, as long as it is for personal production/use. TTB.GOV FAQ
I am going to make a few more phone calls today and see if I can get some more clarification on what any other requirements or issues might be.
Perhaps we should also make contact with someone like: http://www.nthba.org/ ? They seem to be an active group who pays dues and arenât selling beer etc. (somewhat similar to us). I would guess they get asked questions about the legal aspects often and probably have a ready made response to the question for every rung of the legal ladder.
@Tony did you make sure to specify what the makerspace is and that is the location it was occurring, not trying to nit pick just making sure we covered everything. Also did you get her name so we can reference her to the city.
Yes, I did explain that we were doing this at a makerspace in a commercial location, but it was strictly for personal use. While I did not catch her full name, I can call back and ask if we need it. At this point, if there is an issue with homebrewing, it may very well be that there is a local ordinance put in place to cover commercial brewing. I am going to continue making a few more calls today and see what else I can find out.
I love the part about âdoing us a favorâ.
The benevolent master âthrowing us a boneâ, allowing us to do things that are already within our legal rights.
Either it is a regulation/code that we need to follow for the safety and well-being of our members, or it is their âopinionâ and has no legal or safety standing. No one is doing us a favor if they leave something off a report that is a real hazard.
I warned that the bureaucrats would come in spewing their own thoughts on things instead of citing established rules and regulations. Iâve dealt with them in the pastâŚWhen you start requesting the regulations to back up their ârequestsâ, they will relent and you end up with the real issues that truly need to be addressed.
A friend of mine needed his breaker box re-wired after a fire and was going to do the work himself. The fire occurred in the box because the electrician my friend hired years prior connected copper to aluminum and since that electrician was a licensed electrician, the city pencil whipped his inspections instead of actually checking his work.
The city didnât like the fact that my friend wasnât going to use an expensive, licensed electrician and told him that CODE required the work to be done by a licensed electrician and that they wouldnât approve anything he did and he wouldnât get his electrical meter back until he hired one.
My friend didnât have the $10K the electrician wanted to do it. So he told the city he couldnât afford it and that he was just going to live without electricity. Once the city saw that he was serious and wasnât going to pay up, the city miraculously discovered that there was no code that stated the work couldnât be done by the home owner and inspected by the city. To save face, they made him study some code books and take a test before he could start the work. Maybe the city should be making the licensed electricians do the same once a year or so.
Get the code, follow the code, live long and prosper.
Folks, there were several items on both the official list and the unofficial one that the Fire Marshal would have been completely authorized to have shut us down until we complied. That he is giving us time to comply is largely what I believe he meant by cutting us a break.
On the unofficial list, such items are the
GFCI and the water tank.
The fire sprinklers and their rating for our usage areas
Having the alarms and fire detectors wired
and the fact that we had propane (multiple 20lb tanks) inside for storage in a high fire risk area (plasma cutter and welding).
I think it is in our best interest to accomodate his requests and âsuggestionsâ as much as possible. His position gives him a fair bit of leeway in deciding what/how severe are infractions. He could easily walk through the entire space and cite us for potentially dozens (if not hundreds) of infractions and shut us down. Lets not give him any incentive to do so. Unless we are willing to waste our money on legal fees to fight many of these things.
The only apparent show stopper is the brewing, and perhaps the best solution is to ask precisely why he objects (with a brewing member present so they can translate for the rest?) and proceed from there?
I had a similar issue when replacing my water heater. I grew up in a household that worked on our own house. So when my water heater went to shit and rusted through, I called the city code enforcement and asked for the current codes on water heaters. I went about trying to follow all rules, but I needed a licensed plumber and electrician just to pull the required permit. I tried to get this permit, but no plumber was willing to let me do the work and sign off on it. So instead of pulling the permit I just replaced the water heater. Then I got a surprise inspection about possible water heater work from the city. In order not to be fined, I had to pay a plumber $50 to cut and re-solder the connections to the water heater. All he did was sweat off the screw connection, cut the pipe a half inch up and re sweat the connection. I was also told at this time how much of a favor the inspector was doing me by allowing me this alternative.
I didnât have the money, time or know how to fight this at the time. But, I donât want the same to happen to DMS.
I am definitely all for fixing any of the smaller issues that we can, especially safety concerns like a GFCI plug, as they are easy and inexpensive.
As for the propane tanks, NFPA 58, 8.3 does allow for limited indoor storage of propane tanks in industrial settings, but that doesnât mean that there is not a local ordinance on it. Please note, empty cylinders are normally viewed the same as full cylinders for storage quantity concerns unless they are brand new, and have never been filled. There are also different requirements and limitations on indoor storage of tanks in building frequented by the public, so are members considered public? Either way, it would be safest to store them outside, and we should look into what those requirements are and if we can build our own storage cage, or if we have to purchase an approved cage.
Yeah, I too once called a city office about replacing my own water heaterâŚONCEâŚ
Electric, simplest one to do, new home with threaded connections, one hour to replace MAXâŚCalled the city to get a permit, got the same shakedown scamâŚyou have to use one of our approved buddiesâŚI mean, âplumbersâ.
I asked for a copy of the code that stated such, and after going off on a tangent for several minutes, the person on the other end finally relented and said that hiring a city approved plumber would, and I quote, âsave you the hassle of dealing with the city inspectorâ. So in essence, it would be a more convenient and streamlined process for me if I just hired one of their approved plumbers.
I went down to the city office, applied for the permit, paid my bribe, (I mean permit fee), âone hourâ, Then I drained, bought and installed the new water heater, âone hourâ, then waited for the inspector to show up to inspect my work,âseveral hoursâ.
When the inspector showed up, he was very keen on emphasizing the fact that he was âdoing me a favorâ by âfitting me into his oh-so-busy schedule that dayâ. He was so busy he had time to jack jaw about his job for half an hour after pencil whipping my work on the permit paperwork.
Yep, we should fix whatever we can, and open a dialog about why on those things that really cause us heartburn. But we should also remember that this is a public forum and we have no idea who is reading it. Courtesy toward any third party we discuss will never hurt us.
Even if members donât qualify us as a public space, which would surprise me, our Thursday nigh open houses would almost certainly class us as frequented by the public.
And the thing about government regulations is that they are rarely cut and dried. The ability to interpret them is where much of our bureaucracy derives its authority and many lawyers derive their income.
We should not take for granted the fact that we live in historically dense population centers without a lot of background effort to keep disaster and disease from affecting everybody. Cities (and all large organizations) develop codes and regulations to prevent the worst case scenarios that have happened to them. I like living in the Dallas area because its density means I have access just about anything a maker could want. I too have replaced my water heater myself without notifying the authorities because I could do it faster and cheaper and probably better. But DMS cannot act as anonymously as I can and I believe that while some of the inspector requirements may seem a bit much, there is probably some sad history and good reasons that led to its development. Implementing these safety measures at DMS is well within our capabilities and will make us all safer.
I agree Amacha, and I am not suggesting at all that we should attempt to skirt any code or regulation.
The matter at hand is our Certificate of Occupancy. It is a legal document allowing us to occupy the building. Since it is a legal document, we should simply comply with established, legal codes and regulations.
An official suggesting that we must hide, or dispose of, books on contentious subjects seems condescending at best.
I am sure the city library has a COA, despite the many books on arson, meth labs, and BREWING that are sure to be found on their shelves.
Once our legal obligations have been met for the COA, then we can go above and beyond the legal requirements and follow prudent suggestions to make the space a safer environment.
If need be, I can store the DMS brewing gear off site at my shop and bring it out as needed, but I do not want to do that without the boards approval or advice and I am not looking to take permanent ownership of it, as I have too much of my own brewing gear as it is. Hopefully, that is a last resort idea only and I certainly do not want to do that unless absolutely need be, if it solves part of the current issue.
Also, most of the homebrewing equipment is double use for making home made sodas, so maybe we need to take a look at what is strictly for homebrewing and what equipment has other uses. For the most part, we have not really used the the DMS homebrewing equipment for beer brewing in recent months, but I do not know the history on the equipment or who else maybe using it.
@Tony, I donât think that removing the equipment and bringing it back is a legally smart idea. It is much the effect of admitting that having them is violating the law. Thus, if we bring them back and accidentally violate a law, the argument can easily be made that we knew what we were doing was against the law, making a request for leniency more difficult. Iâm not a lawyer, but I can make an argument for tougher enforcement and that seems like a cut and dry one. Hence my concern about removal based on a none posted request, as it may lead to permanent removal.
Side note, I think we need to also figure out what is required to store the wood on site? Iâve officed in Dallas and Farmers Branch and never run into this level of complaint for fire safety. My warehouses have had at times every spot full with pallets of Paper, an even more combustible form of wood. When the fire marshal came and asked what we were storing, we did not lie and they seemed to not have issue with it. Supposedly we are following the same codes, Iâm not sure as to the issue with the wood? Also, because this was under the informal side of the report, I do not wish to search out a violation for the city to then enforce on us.
Thanks everyone for chatting so openly and being so receptive. We are a great group and cautious when needed. It is good to see, and Iâm proud to be a member with the rest of you.
Just to clear up any confusion, I was thinking more along the lines of temporarily storing the equipment off site until we can get this issue sorted out, as we are not doing anything illegal. I was also NOT inferring that we move it only to appease the fire marshal and then bring it back in when he is not looking, as that will only get us in more trouble, over something that is not illegal. If it does need to be temporarily moved while the issue is worked on, I would rather someone from the board or possibly the head of the science committee making that determination and storing it themselves.
I would like to point out that the majority of businesses in every city use extension cords for their office equipment. The reason they get away with it is they call them, âsurge protectors.â The actual surge protection afforded by these cords is questionable, but it keeps the fire marshal away.
Itâs been awhile, but, as I recall any CO2 cylinder of a base diameter less than 3" (i.e. a 19 ounce or smaller tank) is not required by DOT to be hydrostatically tested on a recurring basis. Getting our 8 and 12 ounce tanks hydroâd will probably run in the $30-$50 range each, as well.
@Tony the issue for the propane is that insurance said no as well along with the marshal. We are not claiming to be industrial we are claiming to be educational on our permit. We were already planning to move the propane outside, the issue with them is more the use than the storage.
