Do we really have to pay $50 for the Auto Lift class?

Automotive
#7

I mean, not to be pedantic, but I’m paying $50 a month. That’s $600 a year.

And while I’m not complaining too much, as a new member I’m getting nickel and dimed like crazy. $10 for this class, $5 for this class, $20 for this class, etc.

For classes that have a material use, I get the point of a class fee. It makes sense. Welding uses stock and consumables. Same with woodworking, same with laser, same with sandblasting, etc.

But $50 for a 10 minute class to use a lift… without explanation, seems absurd. When I went through my intro tour, I was told that the only classes that charged fees are those where consumables are used and the fee is to offset the cost of the materials.

Based on that thread you linked me, the $50 fee was to offset half the cost of acquiring the lift, so about $1,000. And that was in December of 2014. I’m guessing that $1K was paid off by now.

And as @jast pointed out, nowhere is the $50 documented… not on the wiki at any rate. And I don’t think it’s reasonable for someone to have to go to a 2 year old talk thread to find this kind of information.

I’m not per-se objecting to the cost, but $50 on top of my $600 seems pretty damn high, particularly when I paid $40 for a 4 hour TIG class that had personalized instruction and taught an actual skill. I’ve been using 2 post lifts for the better part of two decades, and they’re about as stupidly simple as they come, particularly the kind that DMS uses with the sleds.

Look, I’m not trying to bust your balls, but what you have here is a pretty serious perception issue, especially for new members. When I’m told one thing (class fees are for consumables you use up in class), and then get presented another ($50 for 10 minutes so that we can take the leftovers to buy more tools), it feels like a pretty serious bait and switch.

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#8

Just what, beyond paying the rent and utilities, do you expect your $50 to cover. The fact is that many of our members routinely consume far in excess of $50 in consumables (paper, tooling, filament, etc) and even when there are posted fees they fail to pay. The result is that those of us that do pay those fees are subsidizing those who don’t bother.

What you were told during your tour is something to bring up with the volunteers that donate their time to host those tours. The FACT is that what you have available, even with the additional charges, costs you far less then ANY other makerspace in the US.

As @TLAR pointed out, if you are unhappy with the charge you are welcome look at your other options and compare costs. Also if you are unhappy with the fee structures you are welcome to run for the board and change them…

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#9

You will find many sympathizers with your points. Probably enough to compete with the Mormon Tabernacle and their choir. And there are plenty of counterpoints which have been made often, supporting the choice to charge for lift training (For an added wrinkle, which you can read all about if you find the right Talk pages, the lift was donated (thank you @TLAR !) but the increase in annual insurance fees are not) . At the end of the day, Tom, Patrick, and Zach are happy to train anyone who asks, and are very flexible in their offerings, and somewhat like Uncle Sam, automotive gets his cut. I’ve been where you are, and sometimes get miffed at the “nickle and dime”, too, and especially when it’s “just because we can”. However, I have come to think of them as donations to the committee. I either am OK with the donation and benefit (if any) it provides, or I move on.
Talking about it is healthy, and again, your points are very valid, so don’t take offense if they appear to fall on deaf ears; it’s just not some of our first spins on the merry-go-round. But in the end, ya pays the fees, or ya don’t play the lift game. :slight_smile:

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#10

Dang man. You are really bent up about this. Even at 50/month we are dirt fucking cheap. You could go to tech shop for 150 a month and then pay ~300-400 per class if you’d like though.

The $50 is a barrier to entry to make sure people pay attention in the class and understand that the lift can be dangerous. Yeah you have been using them for years but we try our best to treat everyone the same and that means you need to learn the idiosyncracies of our lift too.

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#11

When I was a new member I had some of the same reservations. Then reality struck. When was the last time you rented anything for less than $50? Where can you use a lift for anywhere close to that price? Where can you get the kind of training our VOLUNTEERS provide fee or no fee? The real value is that if you need help with just about anything at DMS someone will help you. Most people freely share their experience and expertise. This makes DMS priceless for many of us.

It takes money to run a makerspace. The general $50 covers honorariums, utilities, rental and equipment replacement among other things. I consider access to these for $50 a month a huge bargain. I haven’t taken lift training, because I haven’t needed it, but I will have no problem paying the $50 when I do.

As @PearceDunlap said considering your alternatives $50 is cheap. And as @wandrson said you can always run for Automotive Committee chair or Board and change the cost. Then you’ll find automotive has very few funds to provide the other new tools because the lift provides most of them.

I easily got over any cost for a class. It is a small cost compared to what it provides you as a member. No class I have taken could I take somewhere else for less.

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#12

Well, I expect it to cover the use of the tools in the space. That’s what it says on the website. Let me quote it:

Becoming a member provides you with 24/7 access to our tools and workspace outside of public training, workshops, and classes. As a member you also have a voice in how the organization is run.

The issue isn’t with the fee. The issue is with expectations. It’s with honesty and transparency. The public perception from the website and from my tour is that for my hard-earned $50, I get access to the tools. I’m new, and I don’t have years of experience in building this space, but I did work very, very hard at building a makerspace in another city. And we strove to be honest and transparent with everything we did. We were really quite specific in NOT appearing to nickel and dime our makers, because that hurts the membership and leaves people with a sour taste in their mouths.

So if I don’t like something, my only options are to (1) go somewhere else, or (2) run for a board of directors seat and change it myself?

I can’t bring up a point of contention anywhere else? I can’t discuss it?

Is that because you’re the King Maker, and what you say goes? Are you brave enough to say that to my face, or is the anonymity of the keyboard emboldening you to act like this?

I don’t have a problem with the fee, it’s the manner in which it’s presented. Maybe it’s because I work in a job where I am compelled to put the best face of the organization forward at all times. Maybe it’s because I had to spend 2 years in Marketing. I don’t know.

The fee isn’t the issue. The perception is.

See, this is an example of what I’m talking about. Is the $50 fee a barrier to entry to make sure that only those who are wealthy enough to pay it can use the toy, or is it a funding source to procure more automotive tools?

I don’t have a problem with the cost, I have a problem with the way it’s presented.

Well, where I come from, the community provides all those things for free. I owned land and a tractor and a metal and wood shop, my neighbor had an automotive shop, his neighbor’s wife did pottery, etc. But that’s really neither here nor there.

And see, I think that’s core to the real problem here. It’s pretty evident that $50 a month isn’t covering costs, and that the class fees charged to new members are paying for the existing membership to get new toys. And that’s not an issue: it’s a perfectly valid model.

But membership in the space isn’t marketed that way. And I’ll tell you why: it’s a huge turn-off to new members. It’s a hidden cost, and that’s what I object to. Honesty and transparency are always preferable to obfuscation and surprise.

Then don’t lie to me and tell me that it costs $50 to teach me to use a lift. I’m not an idiot. My reaction was, and is, sticker shock. If it’s $50 to ensure the ongoing maintenance and acquisition of new tools, just say so. If there’s anything that I have a serious issue with, it’s dishonesty.

And this feels dishonest.

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*sigh* Walter has been muted on Talk
#13

First off - I did donate the lift that is true.
Second - I did not set the fee for the lift class(see Wanderson’s posts)
Third - I did not install the lift - I delivered it tho.

Basic math aside…for your nickel and dime fees plus $600 where can you get 24/7 access to ALL of the gear and equipment at the Dallas Makerspace?
For example $5 covers basic woodworking and that beats having to spends thousands of dollars in the way of tools or the space to house them. When I first joined I knocked out woodworking basics and needed to use the Festool Domino, and Asked Alex for a quick lesson since he was nearby. No problem, a quick lesson and I was don’t with a project.

I’ve never thought of going to the DMS with the thought of making sure I consume at least $600 a month of equipment time and/or consumables to make up for membership fees.

P.S, you are welcome to use the floor jacks and stands with no additional fees.

Note - (this may have not been covered in the tour) If you plan on changing fluids on your vehicle - coolant, Engine oil, Transmission fluid or gear oil etc - you must take the old lubricant with you and preferably dispose of it properly (not in our dumpster)

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#14

Your acting like we are some commercial business, like TechShop, with employees and such. The fact is that we are a volunteer run organization. And those volunteers don’t always communicate accurately. That is just what it is.

We also have over 1400 members. Some of which actively have stolen property. Many of which routinely consume far in excess of their monthly membership fees in consumables. Yes you have 24/7 access to tools. But those tools have consumables; blades, sandpaper, filament, welding wire, welding gases, cutters, etc… Many of those consumables are quite expensive. This is compounded by the fact that we have numerous members who will tell you how much experience they have, and they sure they know how to use that tool. And moments later you can watch them driving a piece of rebar into an brand new band saw blade at 4000 surface feet per minute. Effectively destroying a $40 blade in seconds… And that kind of thing happens ALL THE TIME. Which costs us LOTS of money.

I have no doubt that a small group you worked with, and where everyone knew everyone didn’t have that problem, but we do. The result that has been arrived at, after lots of argument, discussion, and debate is that we have had to start requiring training in many things we didn’t used to (or frankly want to). And that we have started to have to charge for consumables. Frankly we have to charge more then we should, because theft (euphemistically called shrinkage) accounts for about 30% of those costs…

You can bring up anything you like. No one is trying to silence you. BUT we have had these debates before, and few of us want to have them again. So we refer you to the ‘answers’ that the GROUP have arrived at.

What you seemed to have taken as some kind of insult was nothing of the kind. If you don’t like the way something is working your best option to change it is to run for committee or board chair and then try to change it. But I suggest that you spend some time with the enormous number of threads where we have debated these things before and at least familiarize yourself with WHY we are the way we are.

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#15

If you feel strongly about it, some of your options are:

  • Discuss it on TALK
  • Put an agenda item on the next Regular Members Meeting
  • Run for Chairperson of Automotive (or the applicable committee, if not automotive related…), as the fees are determined by each committee, with the committee chair having final say - unless they get voted out or something…

[quote="bknapp, post:12, topic:18035"] I can't bring up a point of contention anywhere else? I can't discuss it? [/quote]

Isn’t that what you are doing now? ???


[quote="bknapp, post:12, topic:18035"] Are you brave enough to say that to my face [/quote]

Regardless of your “intent”, this comes across as a threat. I’m going to give you the benefit of doubt and hope you meant it only as a poor example of trying to make a point. Threats will not be tolerated.

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#16

And here I was, thinking there wasn’t a TechShop within 100 miles!

I think Bradley @bknapp is making some good points, although maybe not in the way some folks want to hear them made.

If the lift fee is $50 it should be documented in the Wiki. If the purpose is to pay for the lift and/or Automotive, it should say that. Or maybe don’t say anything - Just say it costs $50 to take the lift class and leave it at that.

I think hearing something has a cost to be a “barrier to entry” is very off-putting taken in the context of the Thursday night Tours, where people are promised that for $50 a month, they will have access to everything in the building. “Oh, you’ll have to take a class to get access to stuff that will hurt you.” When I took the tour it wasn’t mentioned that it’s $50 to take the CNC Router class, $50 to take the lift class … So you get the situation where someone comes, takes the tour, gets geeked up and excited, joins, and then starts trying to get trained so they can use stuff, and reality sets in.

1 Like
#17

14 posts were split to a new topic: Truth In Tours? (Intentional Misrepresentation or Simple Oversights by Volunteers or ?)

#24

Then that tells me that you have a funding model problem. And rather than raising fees for all, you choose to put the burden of the fees on (1) those honest enough to pay them and (2) on getting as much out of new members when they sign up to take classes as you can.

I sincerely hope you see the irony in this statement. You’re absolutely trying to silence me. Here, let me show you where:

In case you’re wondering, the behavior you’re exhibiting here is called gatekeeping. And the organizational culture you’re describing is that of a failing organization, one that’s so resistant to change and external influence that outside opinions are dismissed out of hand because “that’s not the way we’ve always done it.” I can reference you a few hundred HBR or Economist articles if you’d like.

Lisa, my point is that the members who choose to participate on this Talk forum exhibit what I like to call “keyboard commando syndrome,” in that they are willing to use the insulating factor of the keyboard and monitor to say things that they would never say to someone’s face.

Believe me, there was nothing threatening about that statement. But I would encourage people to conduct themselves and their behavior on the internet as if they were looking me in the eye. It tends to civilize the discourse. You’ll never see me write anything that I won’t say looking someone else in the eye.

#25

I won’t speak for the others, but feel free to look me up in person when I’m at the space. Everything I say on Talk, I’m more than willing to repeat in person. :slight_smile:

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#26

I think your point here is being heard. Thank you Merrissa for adding it to the wiki! I found out about the fees for the few items after I joined but I didn’t feel deceived in any way. That could be because I toured the Tech Shop in DC and anticipated spending over $2,000 annually for access to the wood shop and other various tools.

It would be good to remind tour guides to mention the tools that cost. I am often in the wood shop and they always seem to mention the $50 multicam class as well as the lathe and wood shop basics classes. Maybe they forget about the lift.

It is not anyone’s intention to deceive. We want to open our creative world to as many people as we can. Sounds like your guide forgot the extra details that may have kept you from joining and that is certainly no ones intention.

7 Likes
#27

The lift is easier to get forgotten in the hubbub in part because Tom does such an awesome job of one-on-one training anytime anyone needs it there are never classes. For the others (HAAS, MultiCAM are the big ones I can think of) there are semi-regular classes and you can see how much those cost in recent history (or near future). I see little or no point in putting those on the wiki, for that reason (though anyone is certainly welcome to do what they darned well want without waiting for MY blessing!).

#28

Yes I decided to charge a one time fee for lift access to generate revenue (as opposed to charging per use or by time or no charge), the fee has generated on the order of ~$5,000 for automotive since we got the lift donated from @TLAR. Hard to pull up an easy to read report, but the auto committee has spent a total of around ~$30,000 since its creation. (for reference DMS as a whole currently has 500-600k / year in revenue)

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#29

BTW, I’m going to start holding class-style training to speed up the training on this bit of equipment.

(edit: the class will meet around the lift, not in a boring classroom)

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#30

You clearly underestimate the membership. Most of the people here would say exactly the same thing to your face.

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#32

This is precisely the attitude that makes organizations like this great. And again, it’s not the money that’s the issue. It’s the communication.

I have precisely zero issue presenting anything I’ve said here in any forum, at any time.

I think that the issue is that I’m seeing things through a new member’s eyes, and many (most?) of you are not. Knowing history and context is good, important even. But being able to accept that the external perception and optics are not as positive as you’d hoped them to be is also important.

#33

To get back to the core issue I first want to say thanks for bringing up the concerns you have of the space. There is no intent to deceive people. If you know who gave your tour or what they looked like please PM so we can make sure they are providing all the people on the tour with the appropriate information.

Second, In the handbook you should have received when you signed up (DMS Handbook v2_2017_02_09.pdf (1.2 MB)) there is a list of tools on page 4. In that list there is a “(training cost)” next to the Automotive list, Haas Mill and Multicam CNC Router. We need to update it to include Woodshop tools.

Third, we try to keep prices as low as possible. As some have stated, try and go to any other place and get trained or have access to some equipment and the prices increase dramatically. The reasoning for charges can also vary, It can be for usage, consumables and even in some cases to protect our volunteer time. For example the $5 woodshop basics fee is there because people would sign up and not show. Since the fee was added the level of no shows has dropped dramatically.

As an aside I want to remind people that new members coming in don’t have the entire backstory or the institutional knowledge that others have built up over the years. With this sometimes a fresh pair of eyes can be an asset, sometimes not. In either case we should not just dismiss anyone. Another place to bring up these issues up would be at the member meetings. The next one is this Thursday at 8pm.

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