@Brandon_Green, is absolutely correct. We need member engagement/communication so we can ensure everyone is on the same page.
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I am certified to teach auto mechanics in two states. I have been
repairing cars for 45 years, both on a lift and on jack stands. I can tell
you for an absolute fact that working on a car on a lift is vastly safer
than working on a car supported on jack stands and/or ramps. In 45 years,
I have never seen a car come off a lift. I have personally had a car fall
off ramps (being on a creeper saved me).
With all due respect, Ben’s picture is from this site.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.buzzfeed.com%2Flukebailey%2Fmechanic-problems&ei=_Sn6VM_fGYqZyASYgoLQBw&usg=AFQjCNGVQ7JpTpysTPwsXF87aNQjo5IO-A&sig2=2TqUTmD4Iu1jaNPnHCvbMg
It purports to show extreme cases of “funny” mechanical situations. Even
if the picture is real, the car did not make it to the ground.
Professional shops do not let workers work under a car supported on jack
stands.
A lift would be a very appropriate addition to the Space. What kind of
lift is a very important decision, but I believe that introducing
peripheral issues, like the lease, making a mess (Oh, my; not a mess in a
Makerspace!), and uninformed safety concerns is not productive.
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Oil and fluid stains are very easy to avoid. I’ve already planned to bring a tarp to put under my truck when I do my work. There are plenty of options for mats and whatnot that will prevent stains to the concrete. Just a tiny bit of personal responsibility will make staining a non-issue.
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A tarp is highly non-conducive to anything involving lifting and getting underneath the car. They’re fine for storing a car with leaks, but they’re really no good for working.
Ultimately, unless we can get an epoxy coating, prompt cleanup is the only way to always keep oil from staining. And this isn’t even just Automotive’s problem. Lots of people load and unload leaky cars. Just yesterday there was a Ford conversion van sitting in the shop area being loaded for about an hour, leaking from its oil pan and rear main seals all over the floor. Being as that guy doesn’t work in the automotive field at all, I doubt if he even realized the mess he left behind. (I did clean it up as part of mopping the Auto square last night though) Even if there are stains, though, there are processes to remove them without damaging the concrete. We’ve now got some Tide detergent (which is what they use to clean up oil stains in NASCAR, among others) and for tougher stains I also got some concrete degreaser.
Finally, I do want to add, about safety: that big lathe in the machine shop is just waiting to tangle a man up, the chop saw in the metal shop has no blade guards whatsoever, and I think the big saw in the woodshop doesn’t have a sawstop. All this cheap secondhand equipment is really cool, but there are lots of things in the makerspace that are ready to maim and kill people painfully. While I do think a lift is a tool that could very easily be abused and become dangerous, I do think a lift with mechanical safety locks and 4 frame contact points, which uses a dead-man switch for lowering, is a much safer tool than some of the toys lying around this shop. So, while I do see and agree with both sides of the argument, it does feel like favorites are being played when we let people wearing long sleeves reach into an active, leaking HAAS mill, but say that there will absolutely not be an automotive lift ever.
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Chuck called me on that one, and I thank him for keeping me honest.
Regardless of the source web site’s humor angle, I honestly feel the picture stands on its own. The lift device brings an object of approximately 2 or 3 tons up 7 feet in the air. Then people position themselves under it. Without proper safety and process being observed, there is distinct potential for severe harm. Maybe I need to do more research.
I appreciate Chuck’s experience in the auto shop, and his comments above. No buts. Chuck has wisdom. I am going to gather and distil my thoughts for a productive conversation at the next board meeting. I will give thought to Chuck’s statement as I am doing that.
To add to Chuck’s comment, I’ve personally had a vehicle roll off a jackstand when the person helping me released the parking brake while we only had the front end lifted. Fortunately, I wasn’t underneath the car, because its front axle came down and crushed what used to be a 2-ton-rated stand’s base. Not to mention issues I’ve had with jack and stand placement under vehicles that lack sufficient frame strength outside of designated jack points, mostly from getting the vehicle owner’s help lifting the vehicle. It’s to the point where I’ll only ask for help removing jack stands.
The common denominator here isn’t even the jackstands. It’s just as easy to misplace a lift arm as it is to improperly jack a car. The common factor is people who don’t have the knowledge to operate the tools safely. That time with the car rolling off the jackstand was the first time that guy had ever worked on a car. Each time with a misplaced jack has been from the owner lacking familiarity with working on cars.
In summary, working on cars, like anything involving big heavy things that move, can be dangerous. But, with a sense of the risk involved, and the training to use the equipment safely, you can keep all your fingers, as it were. I’m not saying a lift is any kind of do-all-solve-all, or that there’s even any easy way to keep it out of the hands of unsafe operators, just that the danger doesn’t lie in the tools, but their operation.
So I think the question we should be asking isn’t “is that tool safe?” but rather “can we make it so only people who know how to use that tool safely can use it?” And if the answer to that question is “no” then I resoundingly agree with the decision not to acquire a lift. If there’s no way to lock it down for only people who have demonstrated a general sense of competency and regard for safety, it’s better that we don’t have something like that around. I feel the same way about all the dangerous equipment around the space. I want nothing to do with the liability issues the common idiot can bring about.
On that note, some members and I were discussing buying some leg of goat and making video of what some of the tools around the space can do to it. Nothing quite brings a message home like seeing something with the general consistency of human arm get mangled. Of course, this was just some musing over cane-sweetened Dr Peppers, but it is an idea.
In any case, I think, without a lift we are rather limited in what we can teach about cars, and so at least for now, we should focus any efforts on putting together auto classes, on things that can be accomplished with a car on jackstands, since we at least know for sure we can have those.
I wanted to clear up a few point you brought up. First, yes there are many dangerous pieces of equipment at the space. And each has had it’s turn in the fire and has been under scrutiny. As the Board, we are charged with guiding the direction of the DMS and insuring it as safe as we can make it without going off the deep end of encasing members in protective foam.
I don’t think the chances of getting a life are dead, but it’s not something that is decided on quickly and without much thought and perhaps even over thought. When the lathe was brought in and was under repair, we had the same discussions on the very real danger it was to the user and those around it. So please don’t be under the impression that this equipment is being singled out in a process that hasn’t been done before. To be sure, automotive is one of the few activities we do have be mindful of since it’s something the lease required us to get permission to do. So every new activity like this has to be checked and re-checked.
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I’m sure this has already been considered but is the floor sufficient for a lift?
3,000 PSI concrete and a minimum of 4" thick is standard for automotive lifts.
I assume everything is kosher.
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I believe Brandon already had the concrete checked for depth and rating, when a 2-post lift was in consideration.
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On the topic of lifts, acclaimed YouTube educator, Eric the Car Guy, recently had a lift installed in his shop. He just posted a video about it today:
Eric “The Car Guy” Cook is an ASE Master Technician who’s been working on cars professionally since the late 90s, including over 8 years with Acura, and 5 years doing YouTube videos to educate on automotive mechanics. He has literally hundreds of videos covering all sorts of topics from simple brake replacements to how automatic transmissions work, to highly complicated procedures like engine swaps.
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