Brainstorming potential auto classes on DMS Racing's '95 240sx

Would anyone be interested in attending a class covering any of the following topics? Can anyone suggest any other work we could do on our 240 that you would be interested in seeing?

Format would be anything we could fit into 4 hours on a weekend, longer projects could be broken up into multiple classes.

Pull steering rack, replace boots, bushings, leaking lines.

Pull rear diff, replace seals (LSD would be ~500, so probably not worth it)

Rebuild / replace brake master cylinder

Replace shocks

Replace sway bar bushings

Manual alignment

Install fire suppression system (~700, required for chump car)

How to autox, could only have 2 drivers at a given event

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I would attend those classes.

How about installing a fuel cell so we don’t have to worry about a leaking gas tank.

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If I can break away, I would love to attend.

Between the DMS Racing 240SX and my project daily 200SX there’s a lot of ground we can cover. Some of those classes would really be better taught with a lift, though. I’m not sure how you’d go about showing how to replace a lot of those parts with jackstand space.

With that said, a lot of suspension work would be fairly easy to teach, and a lot of people may find that information useful. I don’t have many suggestions for the 240, but there’s a lot of work to do yet on my 200, and anyone’s free to take some time to learn about it while I’m working. Anyone who follows both cars’ progress might gain some useful insights on the design evolution between 1985 and 1995.

If I can make it out, I’d be interested in helping out with these classes, if not necessarily in a student role. The DMS Racing car would certainly make a good demonstration car for teaching purposes. Well, as long as you don’t intend to bring the car’s cost over $500 for Lemons purposes.

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Excellent point about needing a lift, I had already put a request into the next board meeting to request $3,000 to buy a portable single post lift. If you see any board members be sure to mention to them how useful a lift would be. One not restricted to being bolted to the ground is a great option for our limited space.

The $500 limit only comes into play if we tried to add performance parts like a turbo, huge sway bars, caster/camber plates, cold air intake, etc to the car. We could replace any OE parts for the purposes of a class and not care about the cost (except for the DMS paying for it part).

A fuel cell is a good idea, would anyone be interested in pricing out what it would cost? Would need the fuel cell, steel to mount it, fuel pump, design that meets safety requirements (would be mounted in spare tire recess, but it cant be too close to the rear bumper). I’m guessing it would cost ~$700 with all the materials and a 22 gallon fuel cell (for comparison buying a brand new OE tank from nissan would cost $540). So would have to request funds from the board.

Another potential class would be adding a raspberry pi to the car that interfaces with the ECU to log / transmit telemetry. Although that would be a bit technically involved for a class.

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I would have replied sooner, but I couldn’t remember my information to log in while I was at the space today.

I strongly support that lift idea. The only concern I can think of is ensuring that only members trained in safe operation can use the lift. It seems like that could be more difficult than restricting use of a fixed lift. But, with some discussion, I’m sure a method can be devised.

As an aside, I have a digital copy of the Factory Service Manual for the 1995 240SX (among others). I think it could be a more useful tool in diagnostics and repairs of the car’s OEM bits, than the Chilton manual in the tool drawer. The only caveat being, it is digital and Automotive doesn’t appear to have its own computer. (And FSMs are like 700-page affairs that don’t get along with printers.)

Can you CNC plasma cut some caster/camber plates on the cheap?

Get some aluminum and weld up your own fuel cell?

I would love to take some repair classes such as brakes, water and fuel pumps, belts, alternator, removing door and dashboard panels to work. Of course my 95 Altima (Jalopy) needs front bumper, side panel, and sideview mirror replacement :smiley:

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I’d be interested in brake system and suspension related classes.

What about auto body repair? I’d love to learn how to repair minor dents and prep for painting.

Also, the lift is a fantastic idea. Having worked in a couple of garages, requiring safety training for the lift is a must. I’d actually recommend going so far as having some sort of lock on the lift and only members who’ve received training can get a key. A falling car is pretty much the worst case scenario for DMS.

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I’m beginning to not feel so sure about the lift. I spoke with a member of the board of directors today, and he says the lease strictly prohibits automotive work at all. I feel like, if we got any kind of lift, that might introduce just the kind of liability issue we’d need to get into a lot of trouble with the property owner. Having seen the condition of a lot of the tools around the space (for Christ’s sake, how do you lose the retaining nut for an angle grinder?) I’m fairly convinced that nothing can guarantee the lift doesn’t get abused. Even if nobody gets hurt, the damage a falling car would cause to the floor would be well beyond what I caught heat for today.

All this having been said, my friend and I dabble in paint and body (rather, I dabble; it’s his field of work) and it’d make a good series of classes all unto itself. Of course, painting after doing the body work is pretty much impossible given our situation.

I like the classes proposed, be glad to engage in an assistant role.

If DMS is going to have an auto group, then a lift is a basic necessity, no two ways about it. It’s like asking the electronics group if an oscilloscope is really necessary, or the machine shop if a CNC is a must-have. I do understand the liability and insurance concerns around it, and I don’t agree that you cannot put in process in place that limits the concerns from a safety perspective.

From a legal perspective, it could be something as simple as requiring a member to sign a attached waiver each time they unlock the lift. I race motorcycles, have lost a few friends to the sport, yet see the tracks, promoters, racing organizations and venues continue to operate unaffected. So I find it difficult to believe that an auto lift has the FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) that others make it to be.

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It did until we got written permission from the landlord to do automotive related work in order to not be violating the lease. Which is why there was no automotive work for ~6 months after we moved into the new space.

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Of note, the permission was granted on the condition that we be extremely careful in keeping the floor clean.

If they come in (which they can do for inspections) and see a bunch of oil stains, they’ll tell us to stop automotive work entirely.

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Allow me to illustrate a concern.

Imagine a body under there.

For putting a safety process in place and having members adhere to it, the running track record of the Automotive committee is lacking. There is concern about basic things such as a clean space and fluids not being kept off of or cleaned off the floor; we as a group are liable for any damages to the building.

To further a point that there is doubt that any lift-safety process would be adhered to over time, this edit to the Automotive Committee Rules does not build confidence.

In short, absolutely not on a lift. Value of safety and life comes before perceived needs. Even with a solid group the acquisition of a lift is not an easy one.

Note, this is not condemnation of the entire Automotive group. There are good members who are conscientious with their projects. I like how @JayJohnson600 handles his project. I also talked with @DocMitchell5 last night and I am confident we will work through his situation in good faith. But the group as a whole is causing serious concern.

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Here is a new Oil Stain just this week…

I came into DMS and the owner was not present and was just left like this…

Automotive work inherently deals with oils and brake fluid, both of which are known to stain concrete. While there are no such thing permanent oil stains, the only surefire solution against stains coming to the equation is to simply prohibit any automotive work. Hence the original lease agreement, I’m sure. (As a side note, epoxy coatings are fairly inexpensive and do very well to keep oil from soaking in, but I’m under the impression an epoxy coating is out of the question, based on my conversation with @BenjaminGroves about the existing ESD coating)

I agree with @sunnyt: a lift is a basic necessity if an automotive group is going to exist at DMS, which has a basic focus around education. Simply, education about cars in any real depth is not possible with a car on the ground. There’s no way to get people underneath or at eye level to see the componentry and systems in question. All the same, I agree with the board members: there is no way to guarantee anyone’s safety under a lift here. And this isn’t just an automotive problem, it’s a matter of how people treat DMS tools. The chuck key went missing from the metal shop drill press (despite being tied down to it with a leather strap), and I’ve seen more than my fair share of mutilated tools in my short time here. A lift would be no different. A lift of any sort would be abused, no two ways about it. And unlike an angle grinder with a missing retaining nut, a car misplaced on a lift can really do some damage. Even certified technicians with years of experience have misplaced lift arms. Even excusing the scrawling on the automotive rules chart as a joke, that fact doesn’t build confidence.

Which all brings me to my point: it seems that the automotive committee’s needs are entirely at odds with what we can reasonably accomplish at DMS. There’s no two ways about it, automotive work will spill oil and cause stains, and you can’t much educate people about cars without them on lifts. All the same, the lease prohibits oil spills, and you can’t much trust the average member to put a car on a lift safely. I hate to say it, but it doesn’t seem like this particular focus has much of a place at DMS, for very valid reasons. I wouldn’t want to assume liability for the potential screwups of the other people involved.

Finally, as a side note to @Robert_Davidson, I’ve been with the car every day since I rolled it in. I have had to leave the space to get parts, drain pains, food, and sleep, but I’ve been with the car every minute that other obligations have allowed. Also, the big portion of that fluid that is next to the jack stand and isn’t covered with oil absorbent, was water that spilled out of the exhaust. (The car had been running with a warped head and allowing so much water into the combustion chambers that all 4 cylinders have rusted solid. There was considerable amounts of rusty water in the exhaust) I am taking steps to remove any stains, whether I caused them or not, in the automotive square. As I’ve asserted, there is no such thing as a permanent oil stain. It’s just a matter of drawing the oil out with progressively harsher methods.

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So…
Where does this leave us?
With a gutted automotive group, only capable of “tinkering”, rather than making? It seems like peole enjoy the fact that there is a race car, but want nothing more. I suppose that’s OK, but it’s hard to keep automotive folks around if they can’t do their own things, too.
Anyone aware of a way to “spin off” automotive, if there were a way to find a place, to remove “super-dangerous activities” like using a lift to its own space; same organization, but in a dedicated space?
That’s just a thought.
I’ve been dreaming for years now of gathering a group of like-minded DIYers to buy/rent garage space, and fill it with automotive equipment that everyone needs but no one wants to own due to space or monetary restrictions. Sort of a “diy car club”. Instead of being based on a make or model, base it on the fact that we each want to use an alignment rack once a year.
I knew DMS was not going to be all that I was hoping for on that front, but reading some of the “want” threads made me hopeful.
Now it appears fear and beuracracy will crush what little momentum any of those notions may have gathered…
Pity, since pooled resources is really what this should be all about, and automotive crosses over with so many other fields, it is shameful to crush it…

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I went ahead and put an item on the next board meeting(March 22nd) to discuss the situation and be sure we are meeting all expectations. There is no reason to despair, the auto area is still open for use and we are exploring options to better protect the floor. Just be sure that everyone keeps the number 1 rule in mind, to be excellent to one another.

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