It would be nice to see a list of who was there as a part of the minutes and what actual discussion was had. It’s nice to say the committee voted it but who was there and who voted?
Again banning a wood out of a wood shop seems kinda stupid to me. Especially if the issue could be solved by proper cleaning and maintenance and an enforcement of rules already existing in the shop that never get fully enforced.
Does this singular saw allow for any sort of miter cut? Ripping or resaw?
Also since I so rarely look at wood, can anyone tell me how to identify Pine vs Spruce or Fir?
It is a small table saw.
I wasn’t taking minutes, I was jotting down personal use notes and was asked to post them after the fact.
I didn’t know either. Nor that pressure treated lumber was not allowed on other machines. And I’m there more often than not.
@Nate and @indytruks138 thank you both for sharing this news, and the reasoning behind it.
Everyone else, this is a good reason to go to the next committee meeting, call for a new committee meeting, and/or talk to the chair @Azalaket and vice chair… @Mrksls2?
It is common woodworking knowledge that pine tar/sap gums up milling machines horribly. The major problem when the buildup from that sap or tar lodges itself between the blades and the surface that they attach to, causing them to shift and lift off the cutter head, throwing the alignment out of whack. This not only ruins the calibration and damages the machines, but other people’s projects as well. That is not acceptable. Also, pine tar cuts the life of the sandpaper, discs, drums, etc. By about 75%, meaning that we have to change them 3x more than without.
We are not the only Makerspace that has a ban on SYP and PTP. It is becoming common practice to ban sappy and dangerous woods at shared use woodshops.
I have heard from new members that their previous makerspace made them purchase wood from them to use in their woodshop.
There are many changes happening in the woodshop, and we will continue to do our best to ensure that they relect the overall best interest of all of our members.
Feel free to use any of the handheld power tools on SYP (as long as you know how to-and do-clean them properly after use), or PTP (outside only please) on the new portable tablesaw that is stored under the miter cabinet in the woodshop.
Citation needed. I have read hundreds of magazines on wood working. Woodsmith, Shop Notes and two decades of Fine Woodworking among my favourites.
Then I went and searched on if Pine was bad for tools. I found one link on cleaning sap. Zippo on the dangers of Pine.
I do not recall a single caution against using Pine with any tool. Discussions about it being a softwood and limited by that, yes. Often. (Southern Yellow Pine is an exception, closer to a hard wood. But sappy).
Fir as a substitute:
Fir is as much a substitute for Pine as Maple is for Walnut. You buy them in the same stores for about the same price. And that’s the only things they have in common.
Virtues of Pine beyond framing:
Source 1:
Long list of pros.
“While pine is very different than oak, it is also a good choice for furniture, depending on your purpose. It may not last quite as long as oak, but pine is still a strong, shock-resistant material suitable for furniture, particularly if you like the rustic or country styles. Over time, pine gains a patina that gives it an antique-like quality, which is an appealing look to some people. The dents and dings that are bound to show up in the wood just add to that aged look.”
Source 2:
https://www.quora.com/How-good-a-wood-is-pine-for-making-furniture
"Pine has its place in furniture. Due to its cost it is great for inexpensive pieces and great for beginners to learn on.
White Pine was installed in New England homes hundreds of years ago as flooring. Although heavily worn, it can still be found on those same floors today. There has to be something said for that alone!"
Source 3:
"Construction lumber is usually a mixture of spruce, other types of pine, and fir (SPF, for short). These woods are denser and have a more uneven texture than white pine. SPF pieces are also likely to move a lot after they’re sawn, for two reasons.
First, SPF is frequently sawn from small-diameter trees, so boards often contain the pith. Second, construction lumber has a high moisture content (MC). It’s only dried down to about 17 percent MC, so the wood has a ways to go before it stabilizes.
White pine, on the other hand, is often cut from huge trees, far from the pith, and is usually available kiln dried down to 7 to 9 percent MC, ready to be used in
the woodshop.
Once dried, white pine is exceptionally stable and a
pleasure to work. It shrinks and swells less than red oak or hard maple, for example, and is about on par with cherry. It has a uniform texture with inconspicuous growth rings, unlike construction lumber. You won’t have the aggravation of catching an edge while planing or paring through alternating sections of soft earlywood and hard latewood. Your plane or chisel just glides right through the wood–except the knots, of course."
Substantial rule changes need to be discussed before a 60 min meeting to gather input and buy in from the community.
This is why we require a Talk Thread to accompany every agenda item 48 hours before a Board of Directors meetings. When this doesn’t happen, you end up with disenfranchised members.
It seems cliquish. It hurts the people we serve.
I understand where you’re coming from. Where I’m coming from is that committees like laser and machine shop have had rules in place about prohibited materials in place for quite some time. Why the kickback in the woodshop? (Pun intended) Our prohibited materials list is much shorter, and is in place to protect peoples lungs and/or prevent damaging the machines, just like the other committees.
The reasoning is simple. Pitch, sap or pine tar, or whatever you want to call it gums up cutter heads and blades and makes them act dull. I teach in my woodshop basics class never to use a dull tool. Cleaning up pine pitch takes several hours per machine, at which time the machine is unavailable to the rest of the Makerspace. Not to mention we don’t know how bad the buildup is until it starts messing up other peoples work. At that point, we can usually save the machine, but can do nothing to restore peoples hard work.
Here are a few links that talk about this issue.
Pitch_BuildUp_When_Planing_AirDried_Pine.html
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Cleaning_Pitch_off_Cutterheads.html
These articles discuss the extra steps and sometimes caustic or dangerous chemicals that we have to use to clean the buildup from the machines.
One maintenance day per month is not enough to keep up with the amount of framing lumber that would come thru the shop. We tried to provide an alternative for people who still wanted to work with pine or pressure treated at the space by buying a brand new tablesaw to be used exclusively for that purpose. Also, all of the hand held power tools and non-powered hand tools are still available for use. Another alternative is to restrict makers to only using kiln dried pine on the milling machines (as is recommended on at least one of the websites I listed). Unfortunately, once it gets past the milling steps we have no way of knowing where it came from.
One more link on pine furniture construction:
Just to specify, Yellow Pine is what we discussed, not common whitewood which is what most 2x4 materials are. I always speak to the folks at central hardwoods and hardwood lumber company about their machines and maintenance on them. Both places told me that they stopped running yellow pine through their machines long ago because of the toll that the sap takes on blades and sandpaper. If you’d like to see if first hand, come to a woodshop maintenance day and help clean/replace the knives on the jointer and planer or see the sap on table saw blades and trashed sandpaper.
As John mentioned, come to the meetings and join the discussion. @Mrksls2 is correct; more changes will be coming as we transition into the new space. We need to try our best to ease the use and abuse to our machines that are used by many and maintained by few. When starting a project try to be more cognizant of the materials you are using. Don’t just immediately use whatever is lying around or cheapest; ask around see how many alternatives there are to sappy yellow pine.
Since my Wiki-fu is lacking, is there a clear, documented rule in place now?
I too would like to know which it is; Southern Yellow Pine, Pine (general sense), Framing lumber, Whitewood, Air dried, and Kiln dried have all been mentioned here.
I would be more than happy to help maintain the machines and if once a month doesn’t seem like enough than it should be bi-monthly. Waiting till someone has a problem to address a machine is waiting too long in my opinion. In the shop I used to work in we did weekly cleaning/grease/wax and then once a month was deep clean and blade changes. This was a place where the blades were cutting 40-50 hours a week on various woods.
Is there any interest in a general cleaning class of the machines? Simply hitting it with compressed air and checking there is no build up or waxing the slides and cleaning the paper. If more people knew to do these things before/after cutting it would cut down on wear and tear.
Old woodworker’s tip for cleaning sap off blades.
Spray-on oven cleaner! Let it sit for about 10-15 minutes and all the goo comes right off - sometimes you need a soft toothbrush to encourage it but nothing more vigorous is required.
Try it if you don’t believe me …
Home Depot has a bargain bin?
Simple Green works great for cleaning pine sap off saw blades too. Makes a world of difference in quality of the cut.
@Azalaket you are saying whitewood such as common 2x4s and 2x6s are allowed in the woodshop?
I don’t use the DMS wood shop often but I build tables and stuff for my house out of 2x4s and 2x6s with common Lowe’s lumber. I just want a clarification since it seems a lot of different terms are being used interchangeably on this thread. Thanks
I am under the impression that because we can’t tell the difference between the types of pine, that all are included on the prohibited materials list. if it really is that big of an issue, I’m sure that we can bring it up for another vote at the next regularly-scheduled committee meeting. I’m also sure that our decision whether or not to bring it up for a vote will be largely based on the turnout at the Woodshop maintenance day, and our ability to show people exactly what is involved in removing the buildup created by pine from the machines. If it really is that important to you to mill pine In the Woodshop, come find out why the committee made the decision that we did.
Milling - not so much. But if this is to be decreed, we need a second miter saw set up at least. Not stowed under the table, to be set up each and every time. A full station just like the one we already have. That should handle most of the basic sorts of things people usually build out of pine.
And the white wood vs yellow pine distinction REALLY needs to be made. If there is a problem, it’s with the latter.
If it is an outright ban, you will be running people out of the wood shop. We do not need to be discouraging member activity at this time.
I feel like if we could keep yellow pine off the jointer and planer, the problem would be solved. Unfortunately, that was not the way that the issue was presented at the last (and my first) committee meeting. It was an item that was under discussion at previous meetings, and was ready to be put to a vote shortly after it’s mention. As I stated earlier, anyone who wishes to have this rule put to another vote is welcome to attend the next maintenance day/committee meeting to do so. We can only represent the voices of the people who show up to have them heard.
Proxy, people! Proxy!
But also, “if you don’t show up you don’t count” is kind of a shitty way to treat people, too, in the spirit of excellence and onlineness we (allegedly) foster at DMS… Especially when the opinions come from folks who DO put in huge swaths of time, even if it’s not necessarily in the committee in question (i.e. John Gorman).