20180815 Woodshop Meeting - Pine ban discussion

Substantial rule changes need to be discussed before a 60 min meeting to gather input and buy in from the community.

This is why we require a Talk Thread to accompany every agenda item 48 hours before a Board of Directors meetings. When this doesn’t happen, you end up with disenfranchised members.

It seems cliquish. It hurts the people we serve.

16 Likes

I understand where you’re coming from. Where I’m coming from is that committees like laser and machine shop have had rules in place about prohibited materials in place for quite some time. Why the kickback in the woodshop? (Pun intended) Our prohibited materials list is much shorter, and is in place to protect peoples lungs and/or prevent damaging the machines, just like the other committees.
The reasoning is simple. Pitch, sap or pine tar, or whatever you want to call it gums up cutter heads and blades and makes them act dull. I teach in my woodshop basics class never to use a dull tool. Cleaning up pine pitch takes several hours per machine, at which time the machine is unavailable to the rest of the Makerspace. Not to mention we don’t know how bad the buildup is until it starts messing up other peoples work. At that point, we can usually save the machine, but can do nothing to restore peoples hard work.
Here are a few links that talk about this issue.

Pitch_BuildUp_When_Planing_AirDried_Pine.html

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Cleaning_Pitch_off_Cutterheads.html

These articles discuss the extra steps and sometimes caustic or dangerous chemicals that we have to use to clean the buildup from the machines.
One maintenance day per month is not enough to keep up with the amount of framing lumber that would come thru the shop. We tried to provide an alternative for people who still wanted to work with pine or pressure treated at the space by buying a brand new tablesaw to be used exclusively for that purpose. Also, all of the hand held power tools and non-powered hand tools are still available for use. Another alternative is to restrict makers to only using kiln dried pine on the milling machines (as is recommended on at least one of the websites I listed). Unfortunately, once it gets past the milling steps we have no way of knowing where it came from.
One more link on pine furniture construction:

Just to specify, Yellow Pine is what we discussed, not common whitewood which is what most 2x4 materials are. I always speak to the folks at central hardwoods and hardwood lumber company about their machines and maintenance on them. Both places told me that they stopped running yellow pine through their machines long ago because of the toll that the sap takes on blades and sandpaper. If you’d like to see if first hand, come to a woodshop maintenance day and help clean/replace the knives on the jointer and planer or see the sap on table saw blades and trashed sandpaper.

As John mentioned, come to the meetings and join the discussion. @Mrksls2 is correct; more changes will be coming as we transition into the new space. We need to try our best to ease the use and abuse to our machines that are used by many and maintained by few. When starting a project try to be more cognizant of the materials you are using. Don’t just immediately use whatever is lying around or cheapest; ask around see how many alternatives there are to sappy yellow pine.

3 Likes

Since my Wiki-fu is lacking, is there a clear, documented rule in place now?

2 Likes

I too would like to know which it is; Southern Yellow Pine, Pine (general sense), Framing lumber, Whitewood, Air dried, and Kiln dried have all been mentioned here.

I would be more than happy to help maintain the machines and if once a month doesn’t seem like enough than it should be bi-monthly. Waiting till someone has a problem to address a machine is waiting too long in my opinion. In the shop I used to work in we did weekly cleaning/grease/wax and then once a month was deep clean and blade changes. This was a place where the blades were cutting 40-50 hours a week on various woods.

Is there any interest in a general cleaning class of the machines? Simply hitting it with compressed air and checking there is no build up or waxing the slides and cleaning the paper. If more people knew to do these things before/after cutting it would cut down on wear and tear.

2 Likes

Old woodworker’s tip for cleaning sap off blades.

Spray-on oven cleaner! Let it sit for about 10-15 minutes and all the goo comes right off - sometimes you need a soft toothbrush to encourage it but nothing more vigorous is required.

Try it if you don’t believe me …

4 Likes

Home Depot has a bargain bin?

2 Likes

Simple Green works great for cleaning pine sap off saw blades too. Makes a world of difference in quality of the cut.

2 Likes

@Azalaket you are saying whitewood such as common 2x4s and 2x6s are allowed in the woodshop?

I don’t use the DMS wood shop often but I build tables and stuff for my house out of 2x4s and 2x6s with common Lowe’s lumber. I just want a clarification since it seems a lot of different terms are being used interchangeably on this thread. Thanks

3 Likes

I am under the impression that because we can’t tell the difference between the types of pine, that all are included on the prohibited materials list. if it really is that big of an issue, I’m sure that we can bring it up for another vote at the next regularly-scheduled committee meeting. I’m also sure that our decision whether or not to bring it up for a vote will be largely based on the turnout at the Woodshop maintenance day, and our ability to show people exactly what is involved in removing the buildup created by pine from the machines. If it really is that important to you to mill pine In the Woodshop, come find out why the committee made the decision that we did.

3 Likes

Milling - not so much. But if this is to be decreed, we need a second miter saw set up at least. Not stowed under the table, to be set up each and every time. A full station just like the one we already have. That should handle most of the basic sorts of things people usually build out of pine.

And the white wood vs yellow pine distinction REALLY needs to be made. If there is a problem, it’s with the latter.

If it is an outright ban, you will be running people out of the wood shop. We do not need to be discouraging member activity at this time.

7 Likes

I feel like if we could keep yellow pine off the jointer and planer, the problem would be solved. Unfortunately, that was not the way that the issue was presented at the last (and my first) committee meeting. It was an item that was under discussion at previous meetings, and was ready to be put to a vote shortly after it’s mention. As I stated earlier, anyone who wishes to have this rule put to another vote is welcome to attend the next maintenance day/committee meeting to do so. We can only represent the voices of the people who show up to have them heard.

Proxy, people! Proxy!
But also, “if you don’t show up you don’t count” is kind of a shitty way to treat people, too, in the spirit of excellence and onlineness we (allegedly) foster at DMS… Especially when the opinions come from folks who DO put in huge swaths of time, even if it’s not necessarily in the committee in question (i.e. John Gorman).

5 Likes

https://www.hunker.com/12493905/differences-between-white-and-yellow-pine-wood

Southern Yellow Pine. Very noticeable grain. It’s yellow (though not as much as Bodark). It’s heavy. You can smell the sap - PineSol scented. It is very strong and durable. It does have a lot of Sap.

White Pine is white. Indistinguishable from Spruce in the lumber rack. Significantly lighter. Soft. Sink your finger nail into it soft.

Telling Southern Yellow Pine from White Woods is like telling Cherry apart from Maple. If unsure, just ask when purchasing or a member when found.

1 Like

And that would be a very reasonable approach.

Outright banning anything LIKE the most common lumber around, not so much, in my opinion.

Hopefully this will be revisited real soon now.

4 Likes

Andrew said:

If the posted rule specifically spells out that Yellow Pine is not allowed, is everything OK?

1 Like

Maybe a sample board would make it easier to identify?

6 Likes

I have labeled samples on the way from Dakota for the most commonly used woods that they sell. I will follow up this week and have them on display in the woodshop workshop area soon. I will make sure to include samples of yellow pine and pressure treated lumber for clarification.

10 Likes

A sign made of Southern Yellow Pine with something like this written on it…

I am Southern Yellow Pine. I am poisonous fruit. Never feed me to the machines.

2 Likes

Where can someone find the prohibited materials list?

IMO, it should be either on the wood shop committee wiki page, or linked from that page. If someone can point me to the list, I will make it accessible from that wiki page.

2 Likes