This part of the discussion is not theoretical. The facts are:
-The fire Marshall visited DMS.
-He told us to stop using the plasma immediately and to plan for ventilation before we could use it again.
-Welding could continue without changes except for the fire extinguisher.
I can see no point in continuing to pile opinions on the “but welding should be ventilated, too” cart. No shit. That’s why it’s being made a part of the plasma ventilation plan. I still don’t think that should hold up welding classes. If you’re unwilling to participate due to the dangers, then don’t come until the ventilation is completed. You’ll get no argument from me that it’ll be safer once ventilation is completed. Having said, I do not think we’re exactly “endangering others” by holding classes. If the instructor wants to move them to the door, I have no issue with that. Of course, ya gotta find power, which is also doable…
What you’re saying here is: ventilating the welders is necessary because it is a safety concern. But, let’s go ahead and get a surplus of people trained to weld, thus creating an environment conducive to people welding without proper ventilation. Lack of ventilation affects everybody in the shop, not just the welder.
Am I missing something? You can’t have the ventilation cake and eat it too.
Lee and I talked about it yesterday at the space and decided after open house would be a good time to start scheduling classes. Probably will be a MIG/fluxcore class and a general metal shop 101 class for now. So look for that on the calendar in a few weeks.
No that is not what I am saying. What I am saying, and I believe I have been very literal about this, is that ventilation is DESIRED. It is not REQUIRED for safety concerns or any other reasons. It is DESIRED for a variety of reasons.
There is a huge difference between DESIRED and REQUIRED.
Planning for classes, however, I am arguing should be held to the standard, and we should offer them even while awaiting better ventilation.
Awesome! I think this will help scratch what I perceive as a big itch. To some extent, too, it’s about establishing framework and seeing forward motion again from the Metal Shop. With a plan in place for blossoming class schedule, it’ll help make the whole ventilation project easier to cope with as well.
You were supposed to play in to my hand, not out of it!
My point is that ventilation for the welders is critical for overall shop safety, even though it does not appear to be statutory. DMS is so big that it needs to be evaluated as the same way a commercial shop would be, and that means ventilation, in my humble opinion, should be a installed before exposing the membership at large to an easily identifiable (and easily mitigated) hazard.
And your point is well taken, though arguable to some extent. Depending on which study you read, welding fumes are “harmless” all the way to “certain death”. The truth almost certainly lies somewhere between those extremes. There is a variety of disorders strewn between and sometimes somewhat dubiously “linked to”. As I understand the noise and air pollution of the metal working process, including but not limited to welding fumes, are the reasons the metal shop room was constructed; to separate this from the populace which, when the doors are kept closed, it does. I have to assume at the time it did not occur to the planners that it would be desirable, and arguably necessary to further ventilate the working space. Apparently the fire Marshall did not see an immediate threat to public health from welding in particular, which is probably more indicative of where his research shows “welding fumes” fall on the “harmless/certain death” scale than anything else, really, but to some extent endorses the notion that we should carry on as before. But if we WANT to add ventilation, I cannot imagine he would object. And here we find ourselves, at the crossroad of "should we? (offer classes without the ventilation being operational) or “should we not?” You and I appear to have different opinions on this point. I think our difference lies in the fact that you think ventilation should be done BEFORE we resume teaching, whereas I think “Let’s try to get some classes on the schedule and students in the pipeline; the ventilation will come…” I am, to put a point on it, worried for the momentum lost in the metal shop for a variety of reasons which was supposed to be regained (largely) by swapping the committee around. Then WHAMO! they’re hit with this ventilation thing, and, largely because the welding classes had already stalled out, folks have been wanting to hang the ventilation milllstone around the welding classes’ neck before they can resume when, really, welding classes and ventilation were never tied together.
I’m not being chicken little, screaming about the big, bad, dangerous welder. I’m concerned that safety is being overlooked with the intention to just get around to it eventually. I think it is naive to teach a glut of people to weld, expecting ventilation to appear in due time.
Also, the class would be significantly less effective if they aren’t able to practice afterwards.
Edit: Most of my safety training came while I worked in Canada, which doesn’t play around when it comes to environmental health and safety, all the way down to office ergonomics. Here is another good source of info: http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/safety_haz/welding/fumes.html
If our local regulators are willing to let us use the equipment, then I don’t see the problem. While ventilation would be nice, personally, I just want to learn to weld and am willing (as is our letter agencies) to use it as is for now.
The Fire Marshall only enforces one small subset of the safety envelope, which deals primarily with the control of fire ignition and continued combustion. The Fire codes do not address all parts of safely operating a welder in a larger shop format. The OSHA codes Matt posted address much more, as do normal “how to be a welder” best practices.
It will certainly be a bit more expensive, and require some consideration and practice during classes. But doing it the right way isn’t that hard, and I can see no valid reason to accept “half-ass” as our goal in anything at all.
We have had more then the fire marshall out here reviewing our practices. Should we have venting? Of course. But we already have people welding, using the existing set up. Personally, I want to learn to weld, and do not want to wait any longer for some additional ‘ventilation’. I have been waiting five months already, and it doesn’t appear that we are going to get this ventilation any time in the near future.
That’s the problem. If you say you need ventilation, then you are acknowledging the hazard. If you continue to perform the work, you are assuming the risk of performing the work. Who is liable? The equipment owner? The welder? The dude cutting out paper doilies at the laser that just exceeded the PEL for Hexavalent Chromium? The guy at the 3D printer that was exposed after the HVAC sucked up welding fume?
p.s. Hexavalent Chromium is an oft-cited example because OSHA (by court order) lowered the PEL by an order of magnitude (52 to 5 micrograms of Cr(VI) per cubic meter of air as an 8-hour time- weighted average) after it became painfully apparent that it was carcinogenic. It was pretty much an “oh shit!” event.
p.p.s. “Hexavalent chromium can be formed when performing “hot work” such as welding on stainless steel or melting chromium metal. In these situations the chromium is not originally hexavalent, but the high temperatures involved in the process result in oxidation that converts the chromium to a hexavalent state.” (29 CFR OSHA General Industry 1910)
No, I am acknowledging that ventilation can make the experience more pleasant, not that it is hazadous. If I believed our typical level of exposure was hazardous, I would agree with you. But if hazardous, I expect that one of the several letter agencies we have had inspecting us would have required the ventilation.
BTW, the fire marshal apparently has authority over more then fire issues. Which is why we no longer have home beer brewing in the science area.
I disagree and would classify the ventilation as “imminent”; all the more reason to start planning classes now. By the time one is open that you can attend, the ventilation will be a reality to add to your welding pleasure. And if it is not, well, you can evaluate for yourself whether it’s “worth the risk”.
@MathewBusby I welcome your documentation as it’s always good for the populace to be informed. I harbour a tremendous difference of opinion here:
You are. Each of us is personally responsible for our own well being and some activities have inherent risk.
We do not sue the Sun if we snap an ankle while snow skiing even though it’s to blame for the momentary blindness that caused the fall. That does not remove all relevancy from your point, but let’s place liability squarely where it belongs. Each time you enter the 'Space, you know what is going on, and should plan or react accordingly.
That MAY mean protecting YOURSELF.
For the welder: http://www.millerwelds.com/products/welding_protection/filtration/papr/#load-panel-titanium-9400i
For bystanders: http://www.pksafety.com/moldex2315n99.html
I believe beer brewing was forbidden due to permitting. Fire Marshal is one of those weird terms, it is not at all uncommon for enforcement/inspection of all adopted codes to fall to the Fire Marshal.
I guess I’m going to tap out on this one. It is rare I find things too exhausting to debate, but the entire practice of environmental health and safety is based on proactive hazard assessment and mitigation, not a wrist slap from a state agency or an accident to provoke a reactive change.
Finding a PE to do such work for free seems very unlikely. And the thread makes it sound like the ad hoc approach we wanted to do is not likely to get a PE to sign off on it. That seems to add up to taking awhile to my mind. Hope I am wrong.
