You have a voice! Why can't we have a reasonable discussion? (Raffi Rincón)

[Draco]

Raffi Rincón has been an active and passionate member of Dallas Makerspace for a little over a year, having even served in a leadership capacity as a committee chair. During the COVID-19 outbreak, he was ostracised, harassed, and bullied by the leadership and others at Dallas Makerspace for wanting to talk about how the organization could help save more lives. Wanting to engage in reasonable discourse about how Dallas Makerspace could contribute more during the pandemic, Raffi was repeatedly ridiculed, shut down, and even banned from the DMS online community for demanding to be heard about how he and other makers could make a difference.

This is a discussion rather than an interview. It has an intro that shows some clips.

[agvet]

Because everytime raffi comes around it turns into a hundred page thread of borderline trolling because he refuses any viewpoint that is not his own and then it’s rehashed over and over again until a mod closes the thread for beating a dead horse.

[Draco]

Three issues but only one of them was rehashing, the other two are how things are handled. Also, the video isn’t just about Raffi but Mark and Raffi share some really poignant points about several related topics.

@Draco

Ah … I think I know what might be happening here. You think that because he brought up one thing that it leads back to all the other things. People like Raffi, sometimes think very specifically at one topic at a time. Raffi, let me know if I am way off base here. But this spread out into many separate topics from Raffi’s perceptive. There was the original topic of opening the space, and a separate topic of closing the thread/censorship, a separate topic of the formal complaint process not being followed. You grouped them all and assumed that all three of them are about trying to open the space, when in Raffi’s mind they are separate things and deserve separate conversations. I’m sure it frustrated him when you linked it all back to opening of the space. This is not how many think.

Perhaps, if we separate them all out and handle each separately, it might prove fruitful.

[noblegoblin]

Neutral party here -

I want to say this with all the love in the world - Raffi does not understand (or chooses to ignore) interpersonal relationships and most social norms when it comes to conversation. He loves philosophy and tries to take emotion out of conversation, yet sadly he often misses the mark.

We all know there are a few people who just suck and resort to name calling. At the same time, Raffi def got under the skin of more level headed members because despite having his questions addressed he refuses to stop.

I have NEVER seen Raffi happy with an answer or conversation. Not once.

Raffi and I were friends at one point. He’s intelligent and is great for talking about ideals and concepts with. He is great at playing devils advocate and helping you see other sides you may not have thought of. He is not great for concrete answers.

He needs to learn how to pick and choose his battles and when to let something go. He DESPERATELY needs to learn how to take rejection with grace and to not let disagreements come between positive interpersonal relationships.

[ESmith]

Since we’re digging up our old posts, I was fond of this one:

Criticism of DMS leadership must be especially tolerated

I think we’re pretty much saying the same thing, however my take is that the responsibility goes both ways. Some 20 years ago I was living in a cheap apartment with poor sound attenuation between units. It wasn’t so bad that after the conclusion of your neighbors’ typical Friday night festivities you felt compelled to smoke a cigarette, but without any real concentration you might notice that they changed their rhythm up. An immediate neighbor was having a loud get-together one evening and t…

@noblegoblin

Raffi does not understand (or chooses to ignore) interpersonal relationships and most social norms when it comes to conversation. He loves philosophy and tries to take emotion out of conversation, yet sadly he often misses the mark.

Emphasis added. This has been my experience as well. Social norms may well be tyranny of the majority, but that’s human nature for you and diverting from them greatly is usually done at great personal expense.

We should be kind and understanding with one another, for sure, but there are limits when it comes to social norms, and it behooves everyone to understand and adhere to the more bedrock principles.

@noblegoblin

He is not great for concrete answers.

By no small coincidence, neither is the OP.

[Lampy]

Marks YT channel is turning into a gallery of malcontents.

So Mark lost is son for 3 months due to being banned from DMS - Wha? Some interesting items being discussed but at no time do either suggest what to do. Leadership takes action, even if they are missteps it takes risks to make the choices and correct them if needed.

So where is that hack-a-thon? The BoD was trying to support the computer committee. We even introduced @raffi to Seed Studios who was going to sponsor it with free electronics and sensor boards. He did nothing with that, all it took was an email.

Mark - “We damaged Us!”

No way anyone is going to listen for 2 1/2 hours even at 2x.

[collinrh]

So if he does not need talk to run his campaign because he is so well connected, why does he keep posting these videos here?

[jast]

HE doesn’t.
Draco does.
Make of that what you will.

[Lampy]

Summary

Auto-Generated Transcript

Part 1:

00:00
I can release that too when I would be
00:02
sharing the pyramid yet definitely got
00:04
hmm
00:05
my first criticism not once though that
00:08
it didn’t occur to me to try to filing
00:11
people who were pretty fun yeah that’s
00:14
that’s really bizarre I’ve never looked
00:19
back
00:21
boy I tell you I’ve never seen so much
00:23
garbage in one I mean I thought talk was
00:26
bad talk was you know a hundred times
00:28
worse you know in that and that is
00:32
announcement three I think it was to try
00:34
to intimidate me which actually was
00:37
pretty successful after all he is an
00:40
incumbent on the board and incumbent on
00:42
the board he threatens a who threatens a
00:47
candidate for the board is really I mean
00:52
that’s a conflict of interest but it’s
00:54
inappropriate it’s it’s a it’s a type of
00:57
malfeasance certainly and and and really
01:02
way way outside of the the values that
01:08
Dallas makerspace has held over the
01:11
years and it and not only that it it
01:16
it’s it corrupts the the the system in
01:22
which you know a fair system I mean you
01:26
can’t have a fair system in which you
01:29
know an election is held and incumbents
01:31
try to take out the competition and it
01:37
well they’re the way that they’re the
01:41
the the lowest of the low quality of
01:46
knowledge
01:47
low quality of their arguments yes and
01:50
what’s interesting there but there’s a
01:53
rational because of their identity you
01:56
know their group right thank you
01:58
but what’s interesting is that there
02:01
they all support each other you were
02:04
mentioning their low quality of
02:05
arguments I noticed their low quality of
02:09
arguments and everybody was agreeing
02:11
with their low quality arguments and it
02:13
was
02:13
bizarre because they were a little while
02:17
a little backstory yeah a little
02:19
backstory on Andrew Cody and me we were
02:22
friends early on in the space when he
02:25
joined he he joined a bet that’s the
02:27
same time we got the space opened up and
02:33
he and and he was around for well I mean
02:36
he’s been around since but he he I
02:43
mentored him and in in I mean he was
02:48
only he was in his early 20s I guess he
02:50
was how old are you you in 22 23
02:54
Oh 23 so he was about your age back then
02:58
so yeah the analogy of a normal business
03:04
versus DMS you know volunteers should
03:09
not feel like they are doing that doing
03:12
something for the board they should feel
03:14
like they’re doing something for the
03:16
Memphis’s no volunteers is not right
03:18
you’re responsible to the board there’s
03:21
compensation and the membership
03:23
certainly should not feel responsible to
03:25
the board the board should be
03:27
responsible to the membership official
03:30
like ripping an arm off when you’re
03:33
forced to part from it it’s it’s like
03:35
losing a child if you’re if you’re
03:38
banned okay in fact I will tell you I
03:40
will tell you straight up when I was
03:43
banned from Dallas makerspace by Andrew
03:45
Luck codes influence I felt more pain
03:53
from that experience then when I lost
03:58
briefly lost my son in in a in a divorce
04:05
lawsuit I the judge took away my son for
04:10
about three months and that felt bad I I
04:13
cried over that but well well but let me
04:18
tell you being banned from Dallas
04:22
makerspace felt worse
04:25
because well because honestly I had so
04:28
much invested in Dallas makerspace and I
04:31
I’m speaking of like my heart and soul
04:34
right I’m me and Andrew Lakota suffered
04:38
when we got banned the way I handle it
04:42
was productive the way he handled it was
04:45
not and I could have sued over my ban I
04:54
could have I thought about it I wanted
04:57
to but I knew that if I did it would
05:03
have hurt Dallas makerspace you know
05:07
this this is a this is this is a public
05:11
service for Dallas the Dallas Fort Worth
05:15
area this isn’t mine
05:17
this isn’t yours this isn’t the boards
05:20
this isn’t any one person’s property
05:22
this is this belongs to the community
05:27
okay yeah this this is you know we can’t
05:32
take this with us we can’t we can’t cash
05:35
it in okay it belongs to all of us I was
05:42
the committee chair for the computer
05:43
committee and you know I I decided to
05:47
step down from that position and my
05:49
reasoning was that you know I want I
05:52
want I want a foster community for
05:55
computer geeks and I just felt like
06:00
having that position wasn’t going to
06:03
help me do that with the current or I
06:07
don’t know I just I just wanted to step
06:10
away from any kind of association with
06:14
the current forbid you had a dynamical
06:17
relationship before though oh yeah it
06:21
really I mean I had an amicable
06:24
relationship with James um you know we
06:27
were going to collaborate on the on the
06:29
hackathon I even believe it or not had a
06:33
positive conversation with Freddie
06:35
Calvert that we talked about like
06:38
different personality
06:39
types of stuff really um yeah okay and
06:44
but as soon as I think it started
06:47
probably with my criticism of some
06:49
bullshit arguments on your esto why
06:50
threat then immediately it was like oh
06:54
no Rafi Rafi he doesn’t agree with us
06:58
though some of my calls go long because
07:00
there’s a lot to say because we haven’t
07:03
had a chance to say it and in I was
07:07
thinking this is not a new thought I was
07:09
thinking this earlier about ever got
07:11
about it this this might be one of the
07:14
reasons why the press came about you
07:18
know oppressing oppressing ideas within
07:23
you know a certain group or tribe or
07:26
whatever taking ideas to a different
07:30
medium that that can’t be easily
07:32
controlled is the press it just seems
07:37
like you know successful organization
07:40
has high levels of feedback and debate
07:43
calmly and then ideally that should be
07:47
the case not happen not everybody has
07:50
that tool in their tool built yeah how
07:54
do we overcome that if somebody doesn’t
07:56
have a tool in their tool belt what do
07:57
you do you know and and and and maybe
08:01
have a program that helps people
08:02
developers girlfriend like you’re
08:07
suggesting that we give them the tools
08:08
they need to thrive in an organization
08:11
that requires those kinds of tools if we
08:14
if yeah if we I think we grow to the
08:17
point where we need special tools and
08:20
buy tools I mean social knowledge ok
08:23
emotional knowledge growth as a person
08:26
if we need to be better people in order
08:30
to have an organization that can scale
08:33
that should be that should that should
08:36
be what we teach yeah I guess is that
08:40
not everybody has the same tools the
08:43
tools in their toolbox okay not
08:48
everybody has that gift but we can teach
08:51
it to each other well
08:53
can pass along tools to each other yeah
08:56
you know it is yeah but having this type
09:01
of conversation I think is a way of
09:04
perpetuating those types of tools and
09:07
making it making it a permanent record
09:12
for the world to see helps other people
09:16
yeah helps other people solve their
09:22
issues see some of the damage that’s uh
09:25
that’s that’s occurred with us and we
09:28
having heard damage we have been damaged
09:31
by but you know we have damaged us as an
09:36
organization okay organization is not
09:39
building it’s not money it’s not stuff
09:42
it’s us we facilitate this stuff but
09:45
we’re the organization you know he
09:50
damaged we damaged us with our behavior
09:55
and we need to fix us not the books not
10:00
the stuff us yeah and you know I think
10:06
for many members they just want to stay
10:08
away from all this drama and I
10:10
understand that you shouldn’t have to
10:11
deal with this no this uh this drama is
10:14
not fun to deal with but let me tell you
10:17
you can’t you can’t just ignore it right
10:20
that’s what I was yeah you can’t I mean
10:23
you know I think I think terrible things
10:26
happen when the majority of good people
10:29
what kind of some bad people do some bad
10:34
things and so I think that you know if
10:39
you are a member and you’re listening to
10:42
this and you you know I think you have
10:46
to ask yourself like you know if I I
10:51
just think you have to do your own
10:53
research and I encourage you to do that
10:54
because I think if you look at some of
10:58
the threads on talk and some of the big
11:01
paper that’s going on and I think you’ll
11:04
come to the same conclusions that I that
11:06
I come to
11:07
that’s because I I really think that
11:10
someone’s like some of the conclusions
11:11
that I’ve come to a really obvious and
11:16
so I hope that people will do their own
11:18
research and and look further into this
11:23
yeah that’s yeah that’s my call to
11:25
action I guess to go do some research
11:27
and see what we’re talking about and
11:30
look at the other side see what they’re
11:32
saying considerate and make a decision
11:36
this is Mark havens
11:38
I’m the principal founder of Dallas
11:40
makerspace and with me I have Rafi and
11:43
Rafi is a Dallas makerspace member also
11:46
and glad to have you
11:49
Rafi uh can you introduce yourself sure
11:53
yeah I think I joined in part we see you
12:10
just you just been here a year then 2019
12:14
yeah large all March 2019 okay well
12:17
welcome to Dallas makerspace yeah yeah
12:23
and so I am a software and I was a pussy
12:30
so when I was at the face I kind of saw
12:33
that there was a well they would keep
12:36
committing talking about me and Phi Phi
12:43
K and how those merchants were immature
12:50
and sort of these songs and stuff there
12:53
1k scratches in the deal was we didn’t
12:56
have to hack the song I was going to be
12:58
funded by James but yeah that’s ministry
13:09
on the space but there’s been some drama
13:15
fatally that I’ve been involved in
13:20
basically what happened was the space
13:26
that shut down the special meeting of
13:31
announced at the board had which I think
13:38
make sense is the first step because of
13:42
the Delphi order but I wanted to voice
13:48
my opinion that we should be open and it
13:52
wasn’t I wasn’t necessarily an opinion
13:55
that that we should open despite the
13:59
order maybe you know I could have easily
14:01
did interpret events like just maybe the
14:04
order isn’t okay
14:06
so once the talk and I had to make a
14:08
post about that and it was immediately
14:11
very very quickly it was it was shut
14:14
down since that it was they made it so
14:17
that the moderator made it so that so
14:22
that no one could comment on it or back
14:24
through it no no wait um you uh you you
14:29
posted something on talk asking about
14:32
how we can open our doors again
14:35
to do what so he wasn’t it wasn’t asking
14:42
about how neither is it was more stating
14:44
that I think we should be open oh and
14:47
and it was it was more like it wasn’t
14:54
really a call to action to the board
14:55
because the county order kind of made
14:58
that kind of would make that kind of
15:00
thing pardon
15:02
so that was just I wanted to have the
15:05
conversation about that and so I first a
15:07
bit on top and got shot down well why
15:11
would they shut down the conversation
15:12
about open and if they would open the
15:16
doors what you said they just shut it
15:18
down with what was their reasoning for
15:20
then so this one was like someone’s fine
15:23
about this one time I made fun because
15:26
there was already some other thread
15:28
about this so the reason giving giving
15:31
was that this was beautiful
15:34
so they’d okay you know they didn’t give
15:37
any links to any other breaks which is
15:40
fine I could that’s not required as done
15:42
were you on were you able to find you
15:44
the thrid yes I was able to find another
15:48
thread and I read through that
15:52
apparently I missed both near the end of
15:56
that session where somebody had posted
15:59
the email because email is your business
16:04
and you want to if I could open for PPE
16:09
personal protective equipment production
16:13
no I’m sorry I bomb I miss I must have
16:16
missed something you said what about you
16:18
you were saying something about PPE yeah
16:22
so so I found another thread just other
16:26
thread was talking about opening for PPE
16:28
okay and I so so what what about PPE or
16:36
so you found every thread about PPE but
16:39
and then what right and I replied with
16:42
white one time was it’s fine was
16:46
responding to the first reply on that
16:50
thread it was like a hundred plus
16:51
replies on that thread the first reply
16:55
or I think it was the first with
16:58
somebody saying you know there might be
17:00
some kind of liability so I replied for
17:03
that thing that you know I think that’s
17:05
something that you can always say that
17:06
there might be some imagined for
17:09
potential liability I was kind of you
17:14
know challenging that and saying there’s
17:16
an actual liability and the other reply
17:20
that I made was that was just a quote
17:25
from the Dallas Tom you order the stay
17:29
at home water saying here’s the Gmail
17:32
basically we need to email you get this
17:36
process going if we want you know loan
17:39
what I’m hearing you say is that you you
17:44
were trying to open up reopen the
17:48
discussion about PPE at the space-like
17:51
sure so if it’s oh it’s so funny let me
17:59
say that I got my suit on I got it is
18:05
fortify the community his wind the
18:08
people quiet
18:11
you you were you were asking about
18:14
making PPE at Dallas makerspace and and
18:19
just just asking questions about it or
18:22
entertaining questions about it and they
18:24
hid your posts well I would say one I
18:28
make you reply at this point one of them
18:31
was challenging the idea that there were
18:32
acts for liability involved for the
18:34
state and the other one was simply
18:36
providing factual information and on on
18:39
what the first step would be email that
18:42
you know that Tommy had brought up
18:46
you’re gonna have to forgive me because
18:48
I I’m not very familiar with the thread
18:52
sure sure so yeah by opening for heat so
18:59
so was there a discussion about Dallas
19:02
makerspace making emergency PPE yeah yes
19:08
okay so so you were just at you were
19:14
just talking about they did I guess they
19:16
ultimately said they weren’t going to
19:18
make PPE or yeah I mean I think I’m not
19:23
suitable point they decided that but
19:28
yeah maybe yeah but if it was a decision
19:32
after the decision was made though you
19:35
wanted to reopen the discussion yeah I
19:40
mean I wanted to I wanted to I mean at
19:44
this point all I wanted to do was
19:46
criticize this one reply on that thread
19:50
they were private said makerspace can’t
19:53
afford the potential liability I just
19:57
wanted to say that because I thought
19:58
that it was founded and any kind of of
20:01
well what’s what’s wrong with just
20:03
asking the question and letting the
20:05
community discuss it
20:08
well that’s a question for I guess the
20:13
moderators and the people who flag those
20:16
comments but I wanted to add another
20:19
information service was that not only
20:21
were my reply is hidden but this is the
20:26
important part in my opinion the thread
20:29
was actually closed five Jim Hartnett
20:32
who said that I was beating a dead horse
20:35
and this yeah another important
20:41
information just a moderate what is
20:45
jimson moderator yeah okay moderator is
20:50
also the CEO yo which rule at least it
20:56
was at the time so he is not to say over
20:59
he’s not okay but that’s gonna that’s
21:03
gonna you know be relevant later on and
21:06
destroyed but yeah so just I do want to
21:12
point out that the threat has been had
21:14
not had any ecstasy for think four or
21:16
five days before my reply so did you
21:22
anyone think that I think that’s one of
21:26
the things Facebook excited when when
21:28
saying why the closes read but I think
21:31
my my it might drawn this is if I can’t
21:34
make a new thread about it she the first
21:37
period I fell down and I can’t apply it
21:39
to me that just means this is an off
21:42
topic topic right this is something that
21:44
cannot be talked about on song you know
21:49
because obviously R to me but if I had
21:51
if you know if I had created a nuclear
21:55
and about opening for Kiki
21:56
I would been shut down and be totally
21:58
right yeah it’s all interesting
22:02
i I don’t I don’t know what’s going on
22:05
with talk but I remember
22:09
I remember I’d the there was there was a
22:13
really big making PPE was like a really
22:17
big thing
22:19
March April May I even had a Facebook
22:25
group for it got real real big all about
22:29
makers built in PPE and coordinating all
22:35
of it now I was I was following some of
22:39
the stuff that Dallas makerspace was
22:40
doing but I figured they were closed and
22:44
and there was a little bit of drama
22:47
about that I think amongst what’s it
22:55
acne amongst acne and all right so there
23:00
was there was some drama with it and I
23:02
know it got a little contentious because
23:04
of the elections and stuff that got
23:06
postponed and I know Jim’s running to I
23:13
don’t know if that has anything yeah
23:15
with what what’s going on but he
23:17
wouldn’t it was just him that wouldn’t
23:19
let your was there other people that
23:21
said that you shouldn’t you shouldn’t
23:23
talk about PPE on Todd I think it was I
23:30
mean he didn’t outright say Papa you
23:33
okay said it’s a dead horse which means
23:37
that it had already been decided
23:40
and then his mind that means that I mean
23:43
this is mine obviously my opinion but
23:45
didn’t in his mind you know beating a
23:47
dead horse
23:48
meaning that one has decided it
23:51
shouldn’t be talked about and not only
23:53
should it not be talked about but they
23:55
shouldn’t be allowed to be talked about
23:57
which is I think that’s that are they so
24:01
on
24:02
I’m sorry what’s his last name again
24:05
Hartnett Hartman with H Oh Hartnett
24:10
Hartman uh uh hard neck Hartnett
24:15
Hartnett okay so so Jim
24:22
made the decision to not have the
24:25
community discuss PPE making at the
24:28
space and he wouldn’t let you do it or
24:31
re-engage in past conversations or
24:35
create new threads on it right and that
24:40
do you in Jim have a past
24:43
no I mean not a negative one the only
24:48
pretty much the only communication I
24:51
have happened before was was with the
24:58
committee I think there was the question
25:00
of some machines that were in some
25:02
server closet or something that he
25:06
wanted to see because it seemed like
25:08
they were enacted wanted to get rid of
25:10
them or something well I guess what I
25:12
meant to say is do you and him have an
25:14
amical amicable past has there any been
25:19
has there been any contention I would
25:24
say it’s like I’ve been different or not
25:26
almost non-existent yeah but I’m not
25:28
sure actually because I’m not sure if he
25:30
was involved in the discussions that
25:33
were on your SOI for overhaul was it
25:38
before my people that was something
25:41
where I definitely thought it heads with
25:43
their play I think everyone knows he
25:47
wore my ring you want to I keep I keep
25:49
forgetting his last name but Mike you
25:54
but what’s is what’s his handle again
25:59
it’s like age oh and one ye oh I think I
26:03
don’t even know how to pronounce yet but
26:06
but I know I know
26:08
what you’re talking about of course I’ve
26:10
reviewed my own thread on that Andrea
26:13
and so saw all of the really harsh
26:19
things that were CID and
26:21
are continued to be CID which seems a
26:25
little on the unnecessary side but but
26:28
you participated in that right yeah I
26:31
participated and immediately and this
26:34
has been a pattern for some people
26:37
immediately people threw me in a bucket
26:39
you notice that Oh bye why are you
26:40
sending smart on when I said I’m not
26:43
defending mark because I wasn’t trying
26:45
to defend you for me was about ideas
26:49
about argument is about invalid
26:52
arguments being made that happened to be
26:55
against you and I know that James takes
27:00
in an end to the thought he was very
27:02
active on the threat and I know
27:05
particular and certain at least one very
27:08
ridiculous thing uh your debate is both
27:12
Andrew Cody and Jim James Pennington I’m
27:18
sorry
27:18
oh oh okay James James and Andrew Cody
27:23
yeah okay yeah my planet point that I
27:30
wanted me Versailles I don’t know I
27:33
don’t really know Jim at all or I’m
27:35
sorry I don’t actually I don’t know Jim
27:36
hardly at all I don’t even think I’ve
27:38
met him in person
27:39
I have met James in person a couple of
27:44
times but haven’t haven’t really had
27:47
much of a conversation so these people
27:50
are strangers to me the only person the
27:55
only person I know that you were arguing
27:57
with is Angela Cody and of course we go
28:00
back 10 years right yeah I think
28:03
unfortunately this is and this is just
28:06
my opinion and I think there’s a lot of
28:09
group things but like strong over the
28:11
groupthink going on one evidence is
28:14
evidence that I can that I can provide
28:17
to support this idea is in the in the
28:20
rules there’s a formal complaint policy
28:22
and it says that the complaint has to be
28:27
posted in an agenda or for a for meeting
28:31
that is to be a unscheduled meeting or
28:34
it can be a normal board meeting but the
28:39
complaint has to be posted and it has to
28:41
be sprouts I kind of find information
28:43
and those rules were not followed when
28:49
the board dismissed a complaint that
28:51
want and made an early pick um
28:55
you followed you followed an official
28:57
complaint or a formal complaint and yeah
29:01
they didn’t follow the process in which
29:04
to hear that complaint right so yeah
29:07
we’re kind of dipping around oh yeah
29:10
yeah yeah so that is the next thing that
29:13
happens like almost an accident happened
29:15
so if I go back to UM I made those
29:19
replies Oh exciting the PPE thread got
29:22
closed and then I went to Jim’s other
29:25
sorry and then I and then I filed a
29:28
complaint against Jim or closing the PPE
29:33
threat and I also filed a complaint
29:36
against I’m hiding one of my super
29:39
clocks so one of my super flies it was
29:42
just pure information I thought that was
29:44
kind of wrong I was hitting well it
29:46
seems a little weird it seems a little
29:49
weird to you know disallow a random
29:55
especially a you know you’re in new
29:58
relatively speaking compared to a lot of
30:01
this you’re you’re a relatively new
30:04
member so it’s not like a lot of us have
30:08
some old grudges and stuff but you have
30:11
been around long enough to have any
30:12
grudges so you were mentioning yeah I
30:14
hope they’re like what do they think my
30:17
motive is well item has any like I don’t
30:23
know what I think I mean I’ve heard like
30:25
the argument that I just like to argue
30:27
for fun but I can assure you I can
30:29
assure everyone none of this has been
30:31
fun for me it’s been important but not
30:34
like super fun I understand I don’t do
30:40
this for fun either this whole campaign
30:42
the whole running for board and I
30:47
imagine doing serving the board won’t be
30:51
all that much fun and just just this
30:54
campaign alone I’ve boy I’ve angered my
30:59
family more than once because I’m up all
31:02
around the clock and and causing them to
31:08
I’m disrupting their lives a little bit
31:10
simply because I need I need to take up
31:13
space that’s normally used for family
31:16
yeah I’m at the kitchen table right now
31:19
and so that’s that’s a bit of a
31:25
inconvenience I guess but now it’s it’s
31:30
interesting I guess I’ve noticed that
31:34
people and this is been ongoing honestly
31:38
me and Angela Cody have been we used to
31:44
be friends but we’re not friends anymore
31:48
he actually advocated to have me banned
31:52
in 2016 and did believe it or not over
31:59
nothing in particular and that’s doesn’t
32:02
seem to come up very often I always
32:07
thought the I always thought the rules
32:09
for for banning would be a last resort
32:12
but it was certainly not a last resort
32:15
for me but in any case ever in ever
32:19
since ever since all of that happened
32:21
and even before all that happened
32:23
probably since I don’t know 2014 maybe
32:27
Oh 2014 I guess and it it’s been ever
32:35
ever since then i’ve i’ve noticed that
32:36
anybody that ever has anything to do
32:39
with me that talks to me or anything
32:44
like that I’ve even had new members come
32:46
to me and say hey someone so said I
32:49
shouldn’t be your friend right I’ve had
32:53
yeah I’ve had and honestly I’ve I’ve
32:58
noticed this trends over the years his I
33:03
mean it it kind of wanes for a couple
33:07
years but over the last year it’s
33:10
escalated probably more over the last
33:15
six months
33:16
or so nine months maybe and I think what
33:21
what you’re describing is group thinks
33:23
seem to really really take hold in in
33:29
people that I don’t know like I’ve never
33:32
met or whatever end
33:35
I’ve had people not make eye contact
33:38
with me
33:40
avoid making eye contact and when this
33:46
happened to you it was interesting to
33:51
watch because it looked like you had
33:54
some type of rapport with with these
33:57
people
33:58
and they they ostracized you because you
34:03
made arguments that supported that
34:08
supported a defense for what for
34:12
accusations mind about me yeah there
34:16
were and I want to say that I’ve never
34:21
and I and I and I challenge anyone who’s
34:23
listening to this I have never seen or
34:28
heard any kind of actual disagreement
34:32
among within the board or the clip
34:37
that’s not what never seen any
34:41
disagreement like never any kind of
34:45
debate nothing like that and I I want to
34:50
you know like imagine if our government
34:54
didn’t have any public debate for public
34:58
disagreement like that’s that wouldn’t
35:02
be acceptable I don’t think yeah I think
35:04
we’re far from there but basically you
35:06
know Lazos you know decisions are being
35:13
made in meetings that are not even
35:17
posting or not even on the blog like we
35:26
I was actually part of one so as the
35:29
computer computer committee chair we
35:34
wanted to with the whole expansion stuff
35:37
some people were moving out of the
35:39
orange classroom we’ve we had an idea
35:41
and Kevin Patel helped me develop this
35:46
shout out to him by the way of helping
35:49
me with that but we can I do either if I
35:54
move into the orange classroom and I
35:56
went to the once James with that idea
36:02
and then we had a meeting about it turns
36:05
out that we you know we ended up the end
36:08
is long to find services for the
36:09
computer like this computer lab setting
36:12
is fine but this meeting I don’t think
36:18
it was announced anywhere you know the

[Lampy]

Summary

Part 2:

36:22
whole board was there plus I think the
36:25
whole fourth set I’m not sure I see on
36:27
that one I think I know that Julie James
36:31
Fred I think I know those I know those
36:36
three were there and then in addition to
36:38
that we had Pierce and Freddie and so I
36:44
just think that this I think if you must
36:46
have more engagement with an understood
36:50
on decision making you know at least I
36:54
severely I think we should you know
36:59
remember succeed be able to deal with
37:01
run off just not actually be involved on
37:04
you know out what I would like to see
37:06
from the next board I think is something
37:09
where if you have as members more saying
37:12
what happens other than just voting once
37:15
a year on a fourth but yeah that’s gonna
37:19
where I stand on that and I think that’s
37:21
kind of the opposite of what this board
37:24
has shown they they show up to board
37:27
meeting and vote on what they’ve already
37:32
decided there’s no kind of there’s no
37:35
public debate there’s no it seems like I
37:38
mean it just I don’t know
37:41
well
37:43
seems like they’re discouraging public
37:45
debate especially with the closing of
37:48
the PPE threads like you were saying
37:50
yeah I mean literally and and the not
37:54
only bastards they’re you know I can I
37:57
spoke from the email that I got so so to
38:02
go back into the story after estrogen
38:08
close those things and I connect and I
38:10
raised to the formal complaint by the
38:13
way he recommended solution to these
38:16
complaints was simply to unhide they
38:18
were fine and reopen the threat that’s
38:20
all I was asking
38:21
I wasn’t asking for any farmers
38:23
punishments or anything and didn’t
38:27
respond I guess so after that happened I
38:30
went to in that’s the wiser it and asked
38:33
about this and I saw become sue be
38:36
inappropriate that he’s someone who
38:38
wants to go to a pension the power of
38:40
support and so so we had an argument on
38:47
there he was saying how changing topics
38:51
mid mix cream which i think is
38:57
ridiculous
38:58
and so so then then i got banned from
39:04
talked for two weeks or i got five or
39:07
would you just like for I got you know
39:12
so I got first I got an email saying
39:13
your congressman filings for two weeks
39:15
then I got an email from Morrow who was
39:19
the fourth member and I mean I’ll just
39:24
I’ll just read some parts that so ok
39:28
hard email says from Laura it says I
39:30
filed a complaint against you
39:32
recommending is two weeks time Arkansas
39:34
because you continue the heart about
39:38
what you believe to be unfair of
39:40
moderation after two board members
39:42
closes the data stream so the reasons is
39:45
because I criticized
39:47
Jim’s Madhuri of
39:51
so that’s the seeded I mean I bet the
39:54
state agree that I don’t think it gets
39:56
any
39:57
evident than that and she said just that
40:01
there’s no you go get approached to talk
40:03
during that thing so they they went on
40:05
record with you to say that they banned
40:08
you for criticizing the leadership in
40:13
particular Jim Jim’s Oh Jim’s an officer
40:18
right yeah generous see me about that
40:21
for one sighs an officer yeah
40:27
and they banned you for that they said
40:30
you know that I continue to harp on it
40:35
so it’s because I so Jim and I were
40:38
talking back and forth um I wasn’t
40:40
standing I was you know I wasn’t doing I
40:44
wasn’t
40:45
Jim and I and I get this message about
40:49
how I complete the heart on what I
40:51
believe after keyboard language told me
40:54
to stop talking about it
40:55
so basically you know I sit aside doing
40:58
some board members said hey stop and I
41:02
continue to party with Jim because he
41:05
did you make informed choice I mean he
41:07
replies you know he has so you know
41:11
several of our replies on there and yet
41:15
I was the one that was continuing a part
41:17
on what I considered to be on for a
41:21
moderate well I think I mean that’s open
41:23
to that I think fundamentally in
41:26
principle I mean you were in the right
41:28
in the sense that we we need to engage
41:32
and debate and even criticize our
41:38
leadership yeah otherwise you end up
41:41
with groupthink
41:42
and a silent 'add demoralized membership
41:48
and you know and I know it’s kind of a
41:53
tough balance and being an in leadership
41:55
being criticized is definitely no fun or
42:00
but it’s it’s a burden that leaders have
42:02
to bear when yeah they when they take on
42:06
that that role and it’s it’s a sacrifice
42:10
sacrifice it’s not something that’s fun
42:13
and it’s not something that’s easy to
42:15
deal with it’s something that you use to
42:18
help grow yourself you know maybe learn
42:24
some humility yeah and I should really
42:27
sexy when I would be sharing the
42:30
position I definitely got mm-hmm my
42:32
criticism not one spit though that it
42:35
didn’t occur to me to try to silence
42:38
people who are in effect yeah it’s it’s
42:42
really bizarre
42:43
I’ve never to arch back to point out why
42:49
I thought that you know we should throw
42:52
it away or you know what I mean maybe if
42:57
we were maybe if we were a corporation
42:59
and everybody received a paycheck and
43:01
and there was there was one boss and
43:05
they got to make all the rules and and
43:08
the rules you know and I guess
43:10
technically the board can make any rules
43:11
they want but sometimes feels that way I
43:25
know that I have certain very subjective
43:28
thing of course but I have felt that
43:34
that there did that responsibility seems
43:38
to flow in the wrong direction at the
43:40
makerspace so in a normal business
43:47
responsibility flows to the top right
43:49
you are responsible Bob they’re
43:52
responsible for their bars
43:54
and so forth but in a non-profit
43:59
conference in this particular I guess in
44:04
this particular type of nonprofit
44:06
there’s nonprofits that are already
44:08
completely differently than we do
44:11
rr9 like our volunteer based volunteer
44:16
led organization it’s it’s a guy to be
44:19
different right it’s got to have a
44:21
different way of motivating
44:24
our volunteers to go to to follow the
44:29
leader yeah right
44:30
it’s more like yeah it’s more like like
44:34
a government like yeah it’s more like
44:41
for the people but I didn’t affect the
44:44
populace people now they’re there are
44:46
governments in the world that that might
44:49
operate like like Dallas makerspace is
44:52
operating now it just probably not there
44:56
Erica yeah so if you think about some
45:01
really government swinging around drug
45:06
dealer right arm you know hearing now
45:11
now we’re just getting to like the
45:13
general political conversation I’m not
45:16
really all we don’t need to talk about
45:18
what all it takes
45:19
we’re just we can go back and talk let’s
45:21
talk about Dallas makerspace
45:22
and your experience I so mmm sure so the
45:27
back kind of timeline about things
45:30
happen I got banned or asylums for - I
45:33
didn’t get technically banks if it is so
45:35
login it’s making me post a comment and
45:40
and so so so one interesting thing is
45:46
that even though they decided back to or
45:56
someone say someone decided to silence
45:58
me arm talk and they decided to who at
46:07
least a little bit talk about this my
46:09
complaint and then as it seems like that
46:12
the result of that I got the fan
46:14
particular size because on top however
46:17
in the rule the size that they have to
46:22
have a meeting and and here’s the here’s
46:30
an excerpt of an email from Jane so
46:35
which I think I would
46:37
I would agree with part of this so so
46:41
here’s what it says Rafi no meeting is
46:44
required for this action we’ve been
46:45
found a board action talking about do
46:47
something here asylum on top I thought
46:50
moderators because you were beating a
46:52
dead horse and winning medical he was
46:55
flagged by members as if instead
46:56
directions patrolling so yeah I don’t I
47:01
think this is this term trolling has
47:06
kind of turned into some big market Bob
47:10
that you just saw that people were made
47:13
for greed so I’ve noticed I’ve noticed
47:17
the trolling paradigm - it’s pretty much
47:19
a standard catch phrase now everybody
47:23
everything’s trolling concern roll
47:26
Lessing it seems will be particularly
47:28
popular I know I was called a concern
47:29
troll by Jim yeah I’m repeatedly yeah
47:33
and yeah and that wasn’t even during the
47:37
election that was before it was like
47:38
when on the on the on the Chris thread
47:45
there’s so sometimes there’s so that
47:53
when somebody says something contrary to
47:55
it they kind of instinctively but they
47:59
want to defend the ideas of group and so
48:04
they because they feel that they are
48:08
threatened by sad music entrees and so
48:15
they call it solely because they think
48:17
that you can’t possibly be actually
48:21
concerned
48:22
you must your your intention must solely
48:26
be through insight some kind of response
48:29
is provoking pointless bomb because
48:32
they’re there they’re surrounding
48:34
themselves constantly with people that
48:37
think like they do right yeah yeah Andy
48:42
and the only the only affirmation they
48:44
get from
48:48
you know - or validation I guess the
48:50
only validation they get for the things
48:53
that they’ve you know if they if they if
48:55
they are saying something and they’re
48:57
all their friends are agreeing with them
48:59
and saying attaboy keep going keep in
49:04
Jim’s case keep keep keep harassing the
49:09
members that are our trolling you know
49:13
or whatever but yeah I mean I I can’t I
49:20
can’t exactly call it harassment but
49:21
persistence I guess would be a better
49:25
word for it but by the yeah I think
49:30
they’ve been very very intense was it I
49:34
think it’s very typical of this pretty
49:37
hectic thing on where they just maybe
49:40
pop certain language that they use
49:42
within the group bullying was one of
49:45
those and then being a deaf or you know
49:49
a few years years ago I don’t I would
49:53
say maybe four years ago instead of
49:56
using I mean the trolling was used I
49:59
mean it’s been used for a long time but
50:01
it wasn’t really um
50:03
I would say a catchphrase or a tool that
50:08
was used to - you know suppress this
50:13
what he call it contrary views the the
50:18
technique back then was more of they
50:21
called people conspiracy theorists you
50:23
know or ten hats they just basically
50:26
calling them crazy yeah anybody that had
50:30
some theory about what was going on or
50:33
whatever or was criticizing the
50:36
leadership and in one way or another was
50:38
just called you know a conspiracy
50:41
theorist
50:43
yeah and that that was I mean that’s
50:46
dismissive that’s I mean that you know
50:49
in a household that’s technically you
50:51
know a form of emotional abuse but well
50:55
I do think I think you know I think that
51:02
I mean they dismissed eight of the
51:05
complaints that were active at the time
51:08
Mountain early May which by the way did
51:12
not include all of the complaints that
51:14
are included one in my place but happen
51:16
to be the one that I actually agreed
51:18
with was to be dismissed but let me let
51:24
me clarify that point for a sexy one of
51:27
the requires I’m going on I said was I
51:30
think I measurements before but it was
51:31
information it was information wrong
51:33
just like what the first step would be
51:35
and it happened to be that there someone
51:39
had already posted that information so
51:40
that was hidden because it was a
51:41
everything duplicate that’s fine the
51:47
real important some thing was about
51:49
posing a threat on that was never kept
51:51
in a meeting
51:53
I’m Holly was borrowed some point
51:56
against me a bit afraid to got me
51:57
something good to it which we meet yeah
52:03
so I want to give him sweater just go
52:06
through the rest of the timeline but I
52:10
going to put it like that
52:11
okay so so let’s see where were we I got
52:19
some spittle eat and then when I came
52:21
back I made a document outlining all
52:27
things that happened and it’s hard to
52:30
make a case because I thought that this
52:33
is something that people should want to
52:34
know that James were seem to be implying
52:39
that there was the email meeting and and
52:44
so I tried to have a conversation about
52:45
that immediately got that song and then
52:49
you know at that point I was frustrated
52:52
because it just seems like every every
52:55
single thing that I had done for that
52:57
point had been trucked off the initial
53:00
thread the comments on the existing
53:05
thread that thread itself I shut down
53:07
then when I tried to criticize that
53:10
action then I got that response between
53:14
that I’ve seen
53:15
the point about mouth this is really not
53:18
okay and fact that short song those
53:21
opposed both no comment about it and so
53:25
in me that I see exactly look I went
53:31
through a very similar type of thing
53:33
when when I when I first announced I was
53:36
running for board of directors boy I
53:41
tell you I’ve never seen so much garbage
53:44
and one I mean I thought talk was bad
53:46
talk was you know a hundred times worse
53:48
you know in and that and that
53:51
announcement thread and Wow
53:54
it it just in fact I even had James
53:58
threatened to to ban me and I don’t
54:00
think it’s been just once he’s I think
54:04
it’s been at least twice you know for
54:10
for he’s not much of a fact-checker as
54:14
far as I can tell he he he might infer
54:18
some you know half half-baked idea and
54:21
then run with it ten miles and come to
54:25
some conclusion that is is you know far
54:29
from reality and then say that that is
54:33
well whatever he whatever he decides it
54:35
is it’s definitely fits his agenda and
54:38
in his case I think it was to try to
54:42
intimidate me which actually was pretty
54:45
successful after all he is an incumbent
54:48
on the board and incumbent on the board
54:50
who threatens a who threatens a
54:55
candidate for the board is really I mean
54:59
that’s a conflict of interest but it’s
55:02
inappropriate it’s it’s a it’s a type of
55:04
malfeasance certainly and and and really
55:10
way way outside of the the values that
55:15
Dallas makerspace has held over the
55:19
years and it and not only that it it
55:23
it’s it corrupts the the
55:29
system in which you know a fair system I
55:32
mean you can’t have a fair system in
55:34
which you know an election is held and
55:37
incumbents try to take out the
55:40
competition and it well there the way
55:46
that there the the the low let’s say the
55:52
low quality of knowledge low quality of
55:55
their arguments yes and what’s
55:58
interesting there but they’re so
56:00
rational because of their identity you
56:03
know what their group right thank what
56:05
what’s interesting is that they’re each
56:08
about the forty trouble you were
56:11
mentioning they’re low quality of
56:13
arguments I noticed they’re low quality
56:16
of arguments and everybody was agreeing
56:18
with their low quality arguments and it
56:20
was really bizarre because they were all
56:23
very easily defeated all yeah they were
56:26
among but because of their large number
56:33
their overwhelming number of people
56:36
agreeing it was very difficult for like
56:39
me to even participate in any type of
56:43
discussion or a defense or anything like
56:46
that if there’s 25 party people arguing
56:49
with you and saying that all these low
56:50
quality arguments are valid and all of
56:53
your high quality arguments are not what
56:57
what are you going to do you you
56:59
basically have the option of retreating
57:03
which is is basically giving up or
57:06
quitting or you know it’s it this is a
57:09
it’s a form of mob rule and we have we
57:14
have a you know groupthink occurring in
57:18
and compounding with that and you know
57:23
if if somebody doesn’t like me and and
57:27
they managed to you know inspire or or
57:33
influence a large number of other people
57:36
to not like me to based on well I assume
57:41
it’s it’s based on
57:42
form of trust they trust the person
57:45
who’s telling them all of these lies and
57:48
is the people the mob the the the
57:52
members okay are accepting them at face
57:55
value and it’s because they trust off
57:59
the because they trust the falsehoods
58:01
and I should call them falsehoods
58:02
because I can’t I can’t I can’t hurt I
58:08
mean I could I don’t know what they’re
58:10
thinking I don’t know if their
58:12
intentions are actually malice okay I
58:19
don’t I don’t know that for certain
58:21
because no one’s told me this but I have
58:24
seen actions and the actions suggest
58:28
malice and and the the reoccurring
58:33
nature of the actions suggest malice and
58:38
and of course all of these strangers
58:42
that don’t know who I am
58:44
and imagine strangers that don’t know
58:47
who you are and by your association or
58:50
defense of arguments that support my
58:54
candidacy you know that they they they
58:58
lump us together and say that you’re the
59:01
enemy and they all treat us or they all
59:04
treat you and me and anybody else that I
59:07
associate with like human garbage Wanda
59:12
that’s really unfortunate for the
59:15
community at Dallas makerspace because I
59:18
never dreamed that Dallas makerspace
59:21
community would treat people like human
59:24
garbage but here we are and it’s not
59:28
just me but it’s pretty much you know a
59:31
large community of people of you know a
59:35
huge number of people and and a few have
59:39
have converted I think over to to to
59:45
this groupthink sphere just to be
59:49
accepted and I know there’s been there’s
59:52
been a few cases where people will
59:54
refuse to be seen with me
59:56
but they’re fine with me in private and
59:59
that’s that’s because they don’t want
60:02
people to know that we’re friends so
60:05
they can be ostracized - yeah yeah I
60:11
want to add add a point there so and
60:13
Felix Odie said something on Fox which
60:17
he we were arguing about TV this was on
60:21
the air so I said and each point is that
60:25
a he claims that some qualms Diaz some
60:37
oil that had some level of speech unit
60:41
and flower of weed was worth ten
60:47
thousand dollars based on a estimate
60:51
from his friend oh yeah I heard it I
60:53
heard that one it is just the part that
60:58
makes me really think that and I had
61:00
already said that he didn’t actually
61:01
believe but I thought I suspect not Tom
61:05
because for the last I don’t know how
61:09
many years well has it been six years or
61:13
more
61:14
he’s systematically tried to destroy my
61:17
reputation and I see and I invite
61:22
everyone to look up on that thread but
61:24
he actually did say that in this for it
61:27
he denies that he said that I thought
61:28
and every time I was back at school and
61:31
actually looked it up myself but he
61:35
actually need tonight not only back but
61:38
he denies that he said it on top and
61:40
then I looked it up over here cuz I
61:42
further in the disc for messages he said
61:46
it on the same thing on discord you it’s
61:48
not that you know anything conversation
61:50
so I I tend to think that he didn’t
61:53
actually believe that yeah a little bit
61:56
big well a little backstory yeah a
61:58
little backstory on and ryuko D and me
62:01
we were friends early on in the space
62:04
when he joined he he joined the bet
62:06
that’s the same time we got the space
62:09
opened up
62:11
and he and and he was around for well I
62:16
mean he’s been around since but he he I
62:22
I mentored him and uh in in I mean he
62:27
was only he was in his early 20s I guess
62:30
he was how old are you you in 20 to 23
62:34
Oh 23 so he was about your age back then
62:38
and so I know he had he had some
62:45
interests and some ambitions and he was
62:47
definitely um he was definitely involved
62:49
and no I know he there was a space
62:56
balloon or something like that that was
62:57
one of his first projects and that that
63:01
and and also I guess I put him in charge
63:04
of of handling the meetings and yeah
63:08
actually he was really good at handling
63:10
meetings back then especially since our
63:14
meetings were really crazy and we were
63:17
fighting and stuff like that but I put
63:18
him in charge of managing those meetings
63:22
and he was he was spot-on with it he he
63:25
shut down the arguments and stuff like
63:29
that and we were able to get stuff done
63:30
so you know now it’s you know as
63:35
organization is growing I guess I I
63:40
don’t know it’s it’s I know he doesn’t
63:43
have any experience you know with with
63:47
larger organizations I mean other than
63:50
Dallas makerspace I guess I mean I’m
63:52
sure he works and whatnot but as far as
63:56
developing a business I think like
64:01
Dallas makerspace probably his only
64:02
leadership role there and eat and of
64:05
course he was he was president for five
64:07
years now I think I think the problem is
64:14
is I’m in his way because he wants to be
64:19
a founder of Dallas makerspace and I’m
64:23
I’m here and he’s you know if I weren’t
64:29
here if I were gone if if I were to be
64:33
intimidated or humiliated or exorcised
64:38
out or banned which which he did try to
64:41
do he did tell he did advise one board
64:45
to have me banned for life because I was
64:49
a toxic person and he spent 20 minutes
64:54
telling a roomful of people how crappy I
64:58
was and and and it was it was weird to
65:03
hear this young man tell me until tell
65:08
basically so many people you know my
65:13
friends my peers that I was not worthy
65:18
of belonging to an organization that I
65:25
co-founded but but at the time very few
65:31
people knew my history at Dallas
65:34
makerspace because I didn’t really want
65:36
to be I just wanted to be you know make
65:41
her like everybody else I didn’t want I
65:46
didn’t I didn’t want people to kiss my
65:52
ass right and and it changes your
65:58
relationships with people you can’t
66:00
really have it’s harder to make friends
66:04
if if they if there’s some you know past
66:11
that’s that’s reverent or something that
66:14
that they consider of that they look up
66:19
to and yeah and that it was I guess it
66:23
was now III know I wanted to you know at
66:30
least have some sort of recognition for
66:33
my my accomplishments or for my
66:38
some of the some of the things that
66:40
actually did when I was you know
66:44
building this organization from nothing
66:47
and right and I think and I and honestly
66:50
I that I didn’t do it honestly I didn’t
66:54
do a whole lot other than make sure
66:56
other people got stuff done you know
66:58
that that I mean most of the everybody
67:01
else did most of the work and the only
67:06
thing I ever did would just make sure
67:07
most of the work got done and if
67:10
somebody didn’t do it or didn’t do it
67:13
fast enough I did it myself and that
67:17
that happens when you know when when
67:22
when somebody needed to to put their
67:26
name on the lease and I know originally
67:30
the small community that we had at the
67:32
time wanted me to sign the lease by
67:34
myself because I could and I was you
67:38
know I was willing but I told them I
67:39
said no no that’s that’s you you can’t
67:43
have a community of people and and have
67:48
trust when you have one person as like a
67:53
single point of failure or a point of
67:55
leverage for everybody else so if I were
68:00
to sign the lease by myself I would have
68:04
had too much power
68:06
yeah okay so it’s it’s real important
68:11
that in any organization that like a
68:14
nonprofit organization in which
68:16
community is a central as as long as is
68:22
as long as it’s a community run
68:24
organization like like ours right we’re
68:27
a community run organization we’re all
68:28
volunteer community run organization
68:33
right when when we have a community like
68:37
ours and we centralize power and control
68:42
to one person you end up with a you end
68:47
up with people that don’t feel like
68:49
volunteers ending
68:50
where they feel like servants because
68:53
they don’t themselves feel empowered to
68:56
do something that they can feel proud to
68:59
do that they can take ownership of right
69:03
yeah and if you don’t take if your
69:06
volunteers don’t have a sense of
69:08
ownership you’re you’re you’re not going
69:12
to get commitment from them for for damn
69:14
sure when what you’re going to get is
69:18
you know a lot of burnout they might
69:20
stick around for for some of the
69:23
community they might the they might have
69:28
some sort of you know well I’m not busy
69:30
I might as well do it and learn
69:32
everybody has their own reasons for
69:34
volunteering but yeah when it comes to
69:37
when it comes to any type of inter mater
69:41
intermediary level leadership not top
69:44
leadership or executive leadership or
69:46
you know board leadership but community
69:49
leadership they people have to have a
69:54
sense of I mean you don’t want to call
69:59
it control but but a feeling of well I
70:07
mean the thing is people confuse power
70:10
with you know a bad thing it’s more it’s
70:14
more like investment it should yeah
70:17
right they need to be part of they they
70:20
want to feel like they’re part of
70:23
something bigger than they are right
70:25
that that they’re they’re not just going
70:27
home and you know cleaning their
70:30
bathroom they’re coming to Dallas
70:32
makerspace and they’re cleaning the
70:34
bathroom for you know 1700 people or
70:38
2300 people or whatever oh right and
70:40
ends in that’s an and that’s important
70:44
that’s we’re worried all right now I’m
70:46
using the bathroom as an example but I
70:48
mean that’s really kind of a lowly
70:50
example but people have to clean the
70:53
bathroom and of course so we have a
70:56
service do that now back years ago we
71:00
didn’t have a service and somebody had
71:02
to clean the bathroom and
71:03
and oftentimes it was us well I mean it
71:06
was always always you know yeah so yeah
71:11
so the analogy of the fucking normal
71:14
business versus DMS you know volunteers
71:18
should not feel like they are doing that
71:21
doing something for the board they
71:24
should feel like they’re doing something
71:25
for the Memphis’s yeah
71:27
volunteers is not right you’re
71:29
responsible to the board there’s
71:31
compensation and the membership
71:33
certainly should not feel responsible to
71:35
the board the board should be
71:37
responsible to the membership official
71:39
now when when you take a leadership role
71:42
your services to the people that are you
71:47
know that you’re serving I mean you’re
71:51
you’re this is a service you’re you are
71:53
literally a servant to them helping them
71:57
not the other way around
71:59
especially in this case I mean if your

[Lampy]

Summary

Part 3:

72:03
heart is not for them why are you doing
72:07
it well that’s a I think so I think the
72:12
reason one of the reasons I think is
72:14
that that we have a board that is I
72:18
would say disagreeable famous and highly
72:22
opinionated and unfortunately also I
72:26
could not like that
72:29
is that I think positions of power like
72:32
that attract people who have for very
72:36
who had very strong acquaintance with
72:40
hopping should be done and sometimes
72:43
that comes in a person who is also open
72:46
to debate but unfortunately it seems
72:51
like this group that entered now that is
72:53
not a family base not a fan of dissent
72:55
and and so and so I think that silence
73:00
free on bad decision
73:06
well I want I know we have to wrap
73:10
things up quickly here but I wanted to
73:13
make one one fixed point here which is
73:15
that talk is not a representation of the
73:19
membership and if you squeeze that down
73:22
mounted to talk but to the people
73:24
involved in the drama it’s really not
73:26
that many people and so I think that
73:29
unfortunately because those beams a lot
73:32
of people like that your agenda does is
73:35
it creates a yeah I think it’s really
73:39
only like maybe 15 people no I know
73:41
there’s it’s it’s like 25 30 people that
73:44
are probably most most domineer in the
73:49
drama over the drama department yeah
73:52
it’s lower yeah yeah I don’t know it may
74:03
keeping track of it but it keeps
74:04
dropping but talks
74:08
you’re right talks not representative of
74:10
the membership lots of things head on
74:12
talk all the time and like big things
74:15
and I ran I ran into people before
74:18
Cobian anyway Brandon the people all the
74:19
time didn’t know didn’t know what was
74:22
going on on top right and I mean that’s
74:27
that’s sort of that’s sort of the the
74:31
thing with me and my campaign right now
74:34
is talks uh talks really not important
74:38
to me I have a I have a network outside
74:41
of talk
74:42
I don’t need talk to promote my campaign
74:46
and yeah and that’s that’s probably I
74:52
don’t know maybe set I’ve been around so
74:55
long that I know everybody now well most
75:01
of most of the the new people probably
75:06
won’t know me and some of you know
75:10
people like Andrew Ella Cody will will
75:15
will spread gossip about me things that
75:18
happens you know
75:20
six seven eight years ago that you know
75:23
don’t even make I mean I’ll even know
75:25
half of its it it’s like like a real
75:30
like a huge stretch as far as its
75:32
severity or or truth and the thing is
75:39
there’s he doesn’t have a whole lot to
75:41
work with when it comes to trying to
75:45
make me go away so it keeps working with
75:47
the same the same bag of tricks
75:50
and he he works with that same bag of
75:52
tricks every few years after you know a
75:54
few people like new people come and go
75:57
right you have a new group of people
76:00
that might get into leadership and all
76:02
of a sudden they’re they’re a blank
76:04
slate they don’t know Dallas makerspace
76:06
history they don’t they don’t have
76:08
tribal knowledge especially since the
76:11
last board a 2018 board when it
76:14
transitioned to 2019 board there was no
76:19
there was no knowledge transfer it was
76:22
contention there was a lawsuit filed
76:26
against the old board by Andrew Cody but
76:30
at which which honestly created a
76:34
division between the old board and the
76:36
new board that whole thing created
76:40
created a separation and a prevention
76:43
from knowledge transfer and as a result
76:47
of that lawsuit the old board pledged
76:53
basically just I mean didn’t went ahead
76:56
I mean they did not want to have
76:58
anything to do with a new board because
76:59
a new board seemed to be complicit with
77:02
Andrew Loog odious plan to sue the
77:05
former board and they seemed supportive
77:10
of it and as and as a result you know
77:16
you as a result of this of this lawsuit
77:20
you have you have five people where I
77:25
guess four people because one of the
77:28
board members moved but you have four
77:31
people that just got really pissed off
77:32
and fed up
77:34
with with Andrew Lakota and the new
77:38
board I mean who what law suit wouldn’t
77:41
piss you off right especially if it’s
77:44
especially if it’s baseless and if I
77:48
recall it was dismissed with severe with
77:54
prejudice by the judge and I think it’s
77:57
an appeal now which seems silly to me
78:00
but you know the whole thing basically
78:07
perpetuated this the situation in this
78:12
conflict and it seems like I I guess at
78:17
the tail end of this it they were right
78:22
they were you know they they found
78:24
enough dirt on Chris Anderson to to get
78:29
her band and which you know I’m sure was
78:35
a comfort Angela Cody because Andrew
78:37
Cody got banned for nine months in 2019
78:43
but of course it was it was rescinded
78:49
and as soon as the new board took over
78:52
you know I I don’t know how long he was
78:55
actually banned maybe a couple months or
78:58
something like that but or a few weeks
79:00
might been a couple months
79:02
but let me tell you as somebody that has
79:05
been banned by Andrew Cody or I guess by
79:08
his influence getting banned is probably
79:12
from Dallas makerspace especially if if
79:15
you were one of the founders of Dallas
79:17
makerspace you know it’s like it’s like
79:19
birthing a child when you when you
79:21
create an organization from nothing is
79:24
you feel that same connection now Angela
79:28
Cody spent five years as president of
79:31
Dallas makerspace let me tell you
79:33
something when you put that type of
79:35
investment in an organization you have a
79:40
connection to it it feels it feels like
79:46
ripping an arm off
79:47
when you’re forced to part from it it’s
79:50
like losing a child if you’re if you’re
79:53
banned okay
79:54
in fact I will tell you I will tell you
79:56
straight up when I was banned from
79:58
Dallas makerspace by Andrew the codes
80:01
influence I felt more pain from that
80:09
experience then when I lost briefly lost
80:14
my son in in a in a divorce lawsuit I
80:22
the judge took away my son for about
80:25
three months and that felt bad I I cried
80:29
over that but well but let me tell you
80:35
being banned from Dallas makerspace felt
80:39
worse because well because honestly I
80:43
had so much invested in Dallas
80:45
makerspace and I I’m speaking of like my
80:47
heart and soul right I am now my
80:52
physical labor was only you know over it
80:56
was over a year but it I mean I was
80:58
doing that instead of working right
81:01
anybody that’s been on the board knows
81:02
how much it demands of your time think
81:05
of how much time it took to found Dallas
81:08
makerspace from nothing you have to you
81:12
have to stay committed to an
81:13
organization with 100% of everything you
81:19
got to make it work the first year right
81:29
it has to it I mean because if you don’t
81:32
have that passion to keep it going it’s
81:33
not going to go with somebody else’s non
81:36
passion you know the the passion has to
81:41
keep it going until somebody else
81:45
catches your passion passion can be
81:50
passion can be contagious
81:52
absolutely it can’t be contagious and
81:55
and let me tell you there there i-i-i-i
81:59
made the kool-aid when it came to Dallas
82:01
space when when when people were coming
82:04
in the door I made sure that they were
82:07
welcome and I made sure that they had a
82:09
place to call home and that was one
82:12
thing that led them to want to be part
82:15
of this organization there’s plenty of
82:17
other reasons to stay too but my I think
82:20
one of my biggest contributions was to
82:23
make sure that the people that came
82:25
through that door the new people that
82:27
came through that door felt welcomed and
82:30
yes what Mark Hart numbers didn’t matter
82:34
you should we shouldn’t want to grow a
82:37
disparity right well I mean I mean end
82:43
of argument today here here’s the deal
82:46
it’s you know this this is a this is
82:51
this is a public service for Dallas the
82:55
Dallas Fort Worth area
82:56
this isn’t mine this isn’t yours
83:00
this isn’t the boards this isn’t any one
83:02
person’s property this is this belongs
83:04
to the community okay yeah this this is
83:11
you know we can’t take this with us we
83:15
can’t we can’t cash it in okay it
83:19
belongs to all of us and that’s what it
83:24
was intended to do it was intended to be
83:27
for all of us it wasn’t intended to be
83:31
for one group or another group or one
83:33
person or another person it was intended
83:34
to be for everybody yeah and that’s the
83:38
point
83:38
and I think yeah and I think when people
83:41
don’t have by now why would some body
83:50
want to take it away from any particular
83:57
group why why why keep it to yourself
84:01
why my cherry pick who gets to
84:05
appreciate and benefit from our
84:08
community workshop who makes it this is
84:14
or
84:15
well I think people getting involved in
84:18
personal differences although we we have
84:23
the balls we okay well we’re back that’s
84:28
my machine crashed for some reason and
84:30
and didn’t really hope I don’t lose a
84:35
lot of a lot of that just Just My Luck I
84:38
get all worked up and in my machine
84:42
crashes but like I was saying earlier
84:46
they’re you know getting banned is is
84:50
probably one of the worst things ever I
84:53
ever felt you know like losing the child
84:57
but I can only imagine how painful it
85:02
was for Lakota for Angela Cody when he
85:08
got banned and I imagine that was
85:11
probably just as unfair for him and
85:15
painful for him as it was for me and I
85:19
think and in both of our cases you know
85:23
my my band is with has nobody has ever
85:31
said it was a justified ban other than
85:34
the the board members that that made
85:37
that decision but they don’t like to
85:39
talk about it but I’m talking about it
85:43
now and I imagine and her Lakota getting
85:50
banned by that previous board probably
85:53
felt the same way and I can I can
85:56
imagine how someone like someone like
86:01
that would deal with it now the way I
86:04
dealt with the way I dealt with getting
86:07
banned was I went and found some other
86:10
place that would accept me that was full
86:14
of extremely smart people that would let
86:16
me work on projects and stuff and and be
86:20
productive in a community and that was
86:24
you know the University of Texas at
86:27
Arlington
86:28
when they gave me a full fellowship to
86:32
start my PhD I left when when I left
86:38
Dallas makerspace because of Andrew
86:40
Cody’s influence his his instituted
86:43
banned by that 2016 board I made the
86:50
decision to enter a ph.d program that
86:53
week in fact I only spent two weeks
86:59
preparing before I had to submit my
87:02
application so something came out of it
87:08
good things come out of bad choices bad
87:12
consequences bed you know events in life
87:16
and we learned from them you know it’s
87:26
sufferings good for the soul right I
87:28
tell you that it was me and Andrew
87:32
Lakota suffered when we got banned the
87:36
way I handle it was productive the way
87:38
he handled it was not and I could have
87:45
sued over my band I could have I thought
87:50
about it I wanted to but I knew that if
87:55
I did it would have hurt Dallas
87:59
makerspace yeah and I did not want to
88:04
hurt Dallas makerspace so instead of
88:13
instead of suing Dallas makerspace are
88:15
suing the people responsible for my band
88:18
or causing any trouble at all I quietly
88:22
left for nine months and got my started
88:28
on my PhD good things came of it
88:31
and exactly nine months later I came
88:34
back now
88:39
I think Dallas makerspace was better for
88:42
that I think it i think the the
88:46
consequence of me deciding not to
88:49
retaliate in that way was the best thing
88:55
to do for Dallas makerspace yeah but not
89:04
everybody makes those kinds of decisions
89:07
some people will do things make
89:11
decisions about things that are not in
89:14
the best interest of Dallas makerspace I
89:16
mean they’ll do things that are in their
89:18
own self-interests Andrew Cote chose to
89:23
follow a lawsuit that entrenched Dallas
89:27
makerspace in drama entrenched a lot of
89:33
members yes I’m young it’s it’s it’s not
89:40
a pleasant place to be when you have
89:44
fear of lawsuits and fear of bans and
89:50
draconian rules being made yeah okay no
89:55
go ahead yeah no I think that a lot of
90:00
people when they when they see drama
90:03
business please yeah I think that’s kind
90:08
of a you know to a certain extent that’s
90:11
kind of the right thing to do and a lot
90:13
of distribution absolutely if you’re if
90:18
you’re not invested in the organization
90:20
if you’re not invested in a community
90:23
why stay why why stay when there’s all
90:26
sorts of crap going on everybody’s at
90:28
each other’s throats and angry at each
90:31
other all the time there’s no point in
90:32
staying around there’s a yes it’s not
90:35
worth it
90:35
having access to cheap having access to
90:39
cheap tools I I can go to Home Depot and
90:42
get tools or I can I could work in my
90:46
garage I mean I don’t have a garage
90:48
right now I did before the space came
90:51
along right
90:53
you know that that was a decision I made
90:55
I decided that I didn’t need a garage
90:58
anymore and a bunch of tools and stuff I
91:00
donated my tools to the Dallas
91:01
makerspace my yeah my in fact the the
91:04
first the first table saw was mine which
91:13
ended up getting sold on on Craigslist
91:18
when we upgraded but but no I didn’t
91:23
need it anymore I had Dallas makerspace
91:24
I could come use the Dallas makerspace
91:26
and I was trying to encourage you know
91:29
other people to do the same thing
91:30
because back then we didn’t have a lot
91:31
of money all we had was a community and
91:34
the ability to you know bring our
91:37
community together and share tools and
91:40
that’s what we did yeah that’s what I
91:43
did and I got rid of my garage and my
91:46
tools so you know I live in a condo I my
91:54
wife and especially now that you know
91:56
there’s no doubt makerspace trips on a
92:00
regular basis okay because of Ko bed 19
92:02
I’m having to put together my my
92:06
electronics lab again mm-hmm you know
92:09
because I can’t really justify even
92:11
though I pay like everybody else I don’t
92:14
go to Dallas makerspace because I’ve got
92:16
a elderly mother to take care of and a
92:18
family to take care of and I can’t and
92:20
we’re all I’m high-risk my mom my
92:22
mother’s high-risk we can’t really
92:24
justify going out and exposing ourselves
92:27
to the possibility of you know coming
92:30
down with with the coronavirus mm-hmm so
92:33
I’m staying home you know like a
92:36
responsible adult
92:37
yeah and doing everything I can to help
92:40
Dallas makerspace from home mm-hmm and I
92:45
figure I’m probably not going to be
92:47
alone we still need the community
92:49
without Dallas makerspace without a room
92:51
full of tools or a building full of
92:53
tools there’s not a whole lot left other
92:55
than the community and we still have a
92:57
community mm-hmm okay you have a voice
93:02
now because we have a community to fall
93:07
back on we don’t need talk yeah man I
93:14
think it’s important important to
93:18
because I mean yeah I mean it’s just
93:21
if people don’t if people feel like they
93:25
have a responsibility to this group of
93:28
people this you know the board and I
93:31
don’t know I mean I you know I was I was
93:35
a I was the committee chair for the
93:37
computer committee and you know I I
93:40
decided to step down from that position
93:42
and my reasoning was that you know I
93:46
want I want I want to foster a community
93:48
for computer geeks and I just felt like
93:54
having that position wasn’t going to
93:58
help me do that with the current or I
94:02
don’t know I just I just wanted to step
94:05
away from any kind of association with
94:09
the current for they even you had a
94:11
dynamical relationship before though oh
94:14
yeah it really I mean I had an amicable
94:18
relationship with James um you know we
94:22
were going to collaborate on the Hat on
94:23
the hackathon I even believe it or not
94:27
had a positive conversation with Freddie
94:29
Calvert that we talked about like
94:33
different personality types and stuff
94:34
really um yeah okay and but as soon as I
94:40
think it started probably with my
94:42
criticism of some bullshit arguments on
94:44
your esto y threat then immediately it
94:48
was like oh no Rafi Rafi he doesn’t
94:52
agree with us though well I have a I
94:54
have a reputation for brainwashing young
94:57
impressionable minds right yeah that’s
95:00
yeah you know I think yeah people people
95:05
know that I speak my mind and I’m not
95:07
easily pushed around
95:09
I’m stuck I saw well I’m sorry
95:15
any any defense or affiliation with me
95:19
has caused you to
95:20
lose relationships in our in our
95:24
community workshop oh okay I think um no
95:29
I think for me it’s been a very it was a
95:32
very revealing process like I didn’t I
95:35
didn’t know this side of that so it
95:38
totally hit me personally I kind of
95:41
thought hey these people are you know
95:43
they’re doing some good stuff you know
95:45
seems like at least like for example
95:48
Brad’s work with the financial stuff now
95:53
I’m not an accountant I’m not I have no
95:57
idea it’s a good plan but it seemed at
96:00
least that he cared and that he put a
96:02
lot of time into it and into organizing
96:04
old items and stuff but you know and
96:08
there were other things that just seemed
96:10
like you know like for example the the
96:12
10 by 10 thing that seemed like a good
96:14
thing that happened but you know there’s
96:19
this whole other side that people who
96:21
are not on talked or who don’t pay
96:24
attention to the ugly annoying
96:26
frustrating this kind of exhausting
96:28
parts of talk and discord they don’t
96:31
know about let me tell you I think about
96:35
this I don’t I don’t spend time on talk
96:37
unless I have to
96:40
well I imagine any anybody that spends
96:43
on talk and joys it or I don’t know
96:45
about enjoy but there’s got to be some
96:48
in unhealthiness going on if yeah if if
96:52
I mean so many so much negative behavior
97:00
things that nobody ever even ever say to
97:03
each other but it’s beyond that now I
97:05
think in in some cases Freddie’s proven
97:09
that that things can’t be said outside
97:11
of talk and like what my question is how
97:15
does an organization like ours justify
97:18
keeping people keeping leadership in
97:22
place that that creates such a a
97:30
negative impact on our community
97:33
yeah I mean I’ve never heard anything
97:37
good about about Freddie’s behavior he’s
97:42
he does have a bit of a reputation for
97:49
for being uncivil yeah I think I think
97:55
you know I mean I think everyone has
97:56
some issues everyone you know has issues
97:58
and oh absolutely Hey look I’m full of
98:01
issues but look we’re all human - right
98:05
we we have to put up with some
98:08
imperfections from time to time as long
98:10
as they don’t you know cause a major
98:12
disruption in my life it’s uh it’s it
98:16
should there should be some tolerance
98:17
right but same time
98:20
at the same time you wouldn’t put
98:22
someone who really struggles with
98:25
programming into a position where they
98:27
have to be really good programming that
98:30
is true - okay and and in an
98:34
organization like ours how do you deal
98:36
with it you can’t let it continue
98:39
you can’t I bet yeah I think giving
98:43
people a voice and having a tight
98:45
feedback loop where people can raise
98:49
concerns and those concerns taken
98:51
seriously and not just dismissed are not
98:53
just handled you know without any kind
98:56
of dialogues
98:59
you know like Laura’s complaint never
99:02
made it to any meeting that I know of
99:04
they just seems like someone acted on
99:07
and I can’t say the board because the
99:08
technically could have just been a
99:10
moderator acting as a moderate or but
99:12
you know giving people a voice I think
99:15
having a tight feedback loop where
99:17
changes are made because of concerns of
99:20
the membership that kind of thing is
99:23
really important I think I would work I
99:26
think I would support like a monthly
99:27
board meeting where there’s like a party
99:31
and food before the meeting so people
99:35
are in a good mood and they go to the
99:37
meeting and then you know discussion has
99:39
had about how we should do this that be
99:43
very engaging in the community building
99:47
and it’d be really good I know when
99:50
until we find some sort of cure or at
99:52
least a treatment for coronavirus my at
99:55
my UPS my trips are going to be very
99:57
very chosen you know you know I mean
100:00
after yeah one whenever whenever that is
100:04
I honestly um you know I’m not very
100:09
optimistic when it comes to all of this
100:12
being over pandemic watch it’s probably
100:14
going to be another year or so
100:15
you can line you can have coming you
100:19
know we’ve had our philosophy absolutely
100:22
absolutely and you know I’m enjoying
100:25
every bit of it because it’s it’s social
100:27
and that’s it’s a that’s always been one
100:30
of my most important aspects of having a
100:33
community organization like ours is is
100:36
the social aspect of it and since this
100:39
uh coronavirus hit there’s been nothing
100:40
but social aspect so it’s actually been
100:45
a value to me and not just Dallas
100:48
makerspace but the whole the whole maker
100:51
community in general yeah you know I
100:54
wanna I don’t want to toot my own horn
100:56
here but I I’m really proud of our of
101:04
our philosophy group because it’s
101:09
somewhere where we really do attack
101:13
ideas not people and as you know there’s
101:18
tons to be tons of disagreement but it’s
101:21
always respectful when and and and and
101:26
I’ve certainly had my head I’ve had some
101:28
fundamental beliefs changed through that
101:32
group that I really appreciate on
101:35
because the perspectives given by uh Ben
101:37
I know the things that we’ve said in the
101:41
last hour and 41 minutes apparently yeah
101:46
I know the things that we’ve said and
101:48
I’ve got to be off here by 2:30 because
101:51
I have another another call but we can
101:54
keep going as long as you want it’s fine
101:55
with me okay as long as as long as my
101:59
wife doesn’t come in
102:00
tell me you know that that I shouldn’t
102:03
you know she last time I went to ours
102:07
and she was a little frustrated because
102:10
she was expecting 30-minute calls or
102:14
one-hour calls or whatever but some of
102:16
her some of my calls go long because
102:18
there’s a lot to say because we haven’t
102:21
had a chance to say it and and I was
102:25
thinking this is not a new thought I was
102:27
thinking this earlier about ever God
102:28
about it this this might be one of the
102:32
reasons why the press came about you
102:36
know pressing pressing ideas within you
102:41
know a certain group or tribe or
102:44
whatever taking ideas to a different
102:47
medium that that can’t be easily
102:50
controlled is the press yeah
102:55
and that’s that’s what this that’s what
102:58
this channel is like like sir subscribe
103:02
share like subscribe share by the way
103:04
okay this is this is a this is a YouTube
103:07
channel and I want people to see in in
103:10
here and and understand what’s going on
103:14
and not just not just Dallas makerspace
103:17
the things that are going on with Dallas
103:20
makerspace is it can serve as a case
103:25
study for the rest of the world when it
103:27
comes to maker spaces their problems
103:30
that we have will happen in other
103:33
organizations like ours yeah yeah I
103:37
agree with that
103:37
I think especially showcasing the
103:40
dangers of in and where we’re leading we
103:44
the funny we are leading by example when
103:47
it comes to maker spaces where the
103:49
largest most successful nonprofits all
103:53
volunteer workshop in the world okay and
103:56
that’s something to be that’s our number
103:59
well that’s why I say all volunteer run
104:02
I mean how many all the volunteer run
104:05
organizations are there going to be
104:08
right there’s may be you know there’s
104:11
not very many yeah I
104:14
I don’t have the numbers I’ve tried to
104:16
do research and I can do research okay
104:18
I’m getting a PhD I can do research I
104:21
can’t find a bigger organization than
104:24
ours that that’s that’s a community
104:26
driven organization you know I can find
104:30
one that that’s physically bigger that
104:32
has more square footage you know but I
104:37
can find some that that have I can find
104:43
maker spaces that have free membership
104:46
or in one case of a makerspace was
104:50
considering YouTube followers numbers
104:54
which was which was a bit of a stretch
104:56
in my opinion a member of a makerspace I
105:00
you know but thing is they’re their
105:01
model their whole business model was
105:04
based around YouTube it wasn’t based
105:05
around membership they they they toyed
105:09
around with a membership model but they
105:12
they actually were in Michigan Grand
105:17
Rapids Michigan and they they had they
105:21
had a they had the business model with
105:24
about five or six people work in a whole
105:26
bunch of a whole bunch of volunteers or
105:29
well they were volunteer there were
105:30
interns from colleges most of them with
105:33
graphic design backgrounds and stuff so
105:36
that they can contribute to the YouTube
105:38
channel that was generating over a
105:41
hundred thousand dollars a year in
105:42
income at the time and later on I think
105:44
it went up to a million in in recent
105:50
years before they were shut down but but
105:54
no there was a saying we’re pretty
105:58
what’s in you were talking about how
106:01
we’re pretty in terms of or we’re yeah
106:05
right there
106:08
we’re it as far as I can tell we’re it I
106:12
mean by an order of magnitude there’s
106:14
not a whole lot bigger even now after
106:17
we’ve lost almost a thousand people
106:21
we’re still we can still claim that
106:24
because that’s how big we were what
106:27
what they’d like 2400 at some point
106:31
uh-huh I know let’s see I don’t know I’m
106:34
thinking about a question that the on
106:38
the candidates list on the candidates
106:40
questions somebody said that we lost 500
106:44
people let’s say he was
106:47
we lost 500 people before Koba 19 hit
106:51
and 450 people after Cova 19 hit which
106:56
yeah I guess if that’s true that would
106:58
mean that we lost more people you know
107:05
last year then we’ve lost you know
107:11
during COBIT dacovia 19 well then they
107:18
might just be talking about members lost
107:19
like the count going down to get the
107:22
Concord new members coming up you know
107:26
no I’m talking about membership I’m
107:28
talking about value the people if if all
107:30
you care about is money that’s one thing
107:32
sure but Dallas makerspace isn’t about

[Lampy]

Summary

Part 4:
107:34
money it’s about people it’s about
107:35
community and if you if you aren’t
107:38
sharing the value of Dallas makerspace
107:40
to people what point is there in having
107:44
Dallas makerspace yeah yeah I encourage
107:51
people go visit the website makerspace
107:55
beta Con visit makerspace datacom yeah
107:59
yeah great website to help you look at
108:03
some actual back about on membership
108:06
numbers and other thing and other
108:09
important things too like how many I’m
108:11
now reading this then it’s it’s all
108:14
public data yeah I’m working on a case
108:18
study for it and then honestly this all
108:21
of this is this whole this whole
108:27
campaign is is me gathering facts for
108:31
you know this type of stuff for
108:34
posterity for case study word right I
108:38
don’t know if I’ll be done ever
108:41
I mean I’ll be done I mean I mean ever
108:43
is in like I’ll always continue to study
108:46
Dallas makerspace as a case study yeah
108:50
and and I hope to continually release it
108:54
I just started this idea of releasing
108:59
case studies for Duff’s makerspace as a
109:03
means of helping other maker spaces and
109:07
it’s not the first time I’ve been
109:09
wanting to build a makerspace incubator
109:12
for the last six years and that never
109:17
materialized for well due to mr. Cody’s
109:25
influence and and meddling it’s it’s
109:31
it’s been a bust but I I have I have a
109:38
heart for for this type of organization
109:41
they have a heart for this organization
109:43
certainly but the the I think the
109:46
greater the greater cause is is not
109:50
Dallas makerspace but delos but but but
109:54
maker spaces but the maker community
109:57
that the spirit of the maker community
109:59
the the whole idea of being able to
110:02
innovate and make and learn about things
110:05
and it’s not just Dallas makerspace it’s
110:08
it’s the world and the world needs to
110:12
benefit from Dallas maker spaces tribal
110:15
knowledge right yeah if we can call
110:19
ourselves a tribe because we’re divided
110:22
right now you know we’re basically in
110:25
civil war we’ve been in civil war for
110:27
over a year a year and a half
110:31
I mean honestly from my perspective
110:34
we’ve been in some type of civil war or
110:36
cold war for the last six years you know
110:42
and I mean part of that is the fact that
110:48
we’re as big as we are churches go
110:50
through this when they split but we we
110:54
have a
110:56
we have an organization that’s designed
110:59
not like a church I mean it is to some
111:02
extent in the social aspects but it has
111:05
a set of bylaws that allow for you know
111:11
a pendulum to swing one way or the other
111:15
if necessary but but it allows for a
111:19
community to develop and for the
111:21
community to you know figure out over
111:25
time through trial and error what works
111:28
and what doesn’t work yeah the problem
111:31
is that that requires in fact it does
111:34
require feedback believe it or not now
111:38
honestly my feedback would have been
111:41
membership growth right if if there are
111:44
more people signing up then leaving that
111:47
is positive feedback yeah I mean I think
111:51
the argument I don’t know it I don’t
111:54
even know if judgment it for but it’s
111:57
really judgment it’s okay that with
112:00
losing members because there’s no reason
112:03
to grow which doesn’t well here’s the
112:10
deal if you there’s the reason I’ll even
112:14
know what to make it it it’s okay to
112:18
have a crappy organization that nobody
112:20
wants to come to and use because we
112:23
don’t need to grow I mean yeah because
112:27
that’s what it sounds like that’s that’s
112:29
what it sounds like somebody is saying
112:31
they have a crappy organization that
112:34
nobody wants to come to I was like I’d
112:37
love to know what their reasoning is why
112:38
they think that it really lost we’re
112:40
losing some members before cove is it
112:47
just seems like you know successful
112:50
organization has high levels of feedback
112:53
and can debate calmly and but ideally
112:56
that should be the case not happen not
113:00
everybody has that tool in their tool
113:02
built yeah how do we overcome that if
113:06
somebody doesn’t have a tool in their
113:07
tool belt whether you do
113:08
well you know and and and and maybe have
113:12
a program that helps people developers
113:14
girlfriend like you’re suggesting that
113:18
we give them the tools they need to
113:20
thrive in an organization that requires
113:22
those kinds of tools if we if yeah if we
113:27
I think we grow to the point where we
113:29
need special tools and buy tools I mean
113:31
social knowledge okay emotional
113:34
knowledge growth as a person if we need
113:38
to be better people in order to have an
113:41
organization that can scale that should
113:45
be that should that should be what we
113:47
teach yeah you should have it you know
113:51
one of the things I think well I think
113:53
having messages on the walls about I
113:56
don’t know like being excellent I don’t
113:59
know if yes be very careful second
114:01
thanks but having reminders or say of
114:05
how to how to have home base how to
114:09
attack ideas not people and how to
114:13
accept valid criticism and try to seek
114:16
out valid criticism and sort of improve
114:19
the way to do things
114:22
having having reminders and value you
114:24
know because really it’s the matter of
114:26
value yeah that just seems really
114:30
important to have a successful
114:32
organization well if we don’t have the
114:35
same values than what do we do well
114:42
sometimes there’s there’s like critical
114:44
values right right like like I guess in
114:47
this situation we have one group of
114:50
people that believes very strongly in
114:52
the right to associate with who they
114:54
choose and disenfranchise those they
115:00
don’t want to associate with they
115:03
certainly don’t value to thing that’s I
115:06
can speak for that they they don’t value
115:08
what did thank credit dissents dissents
115:12
right okay now why is it why is dissent
115:15
bad because I learned in school that the
115:17
set is good that’s how our country got
115:19
founded
115:20
yeah I mean
115:22
criticism of the government especially
115:25
protected rights especially protected
115:27
now now people will tell you here like
115:29
the board and and and a lot of a lot of
115:33
influencers surrounding the party though
115:38
they’ll tell you that Dallas makerspace
115:39
isn’t a government right it’s not it’s
115:42
not a point you know you should not
115:44
expect free speech and they don’t you
115:47
know do certain way yeah and and yes
115:50
that is technically true you can do
115:53
whatever you want if it’s legal decision
115:56
making wise as a you know if you’re in
116:01
leadership and or have been delegated
116:03
authority all these things but you’re
116:06
you’re you are not for why you should do
116:10
with it what you argue you’re not going
116:12
to win the minds in hearts of your
116:16
membership they’re gonna vote with their
116:19
feet and that’s exactly what’s happening
116:21
now they’re voting with their feet and
116:24
maybe that’s maybe that’s fine maybe
116:27
that’s fine when when you’re you know a
116:29
group of people who don’t mind you know
116:33
having a nice big large space that has
116:36
just enough money to come in in from
116:38
residual payments every month from
116:42
people that don’t come anyway you know
116:45
and if you do the math we could probably
116:48
lose everybody that comes to the space
116:51
on a regular basis and it still and
116:53
still have enough money to pay all the
116:56
bills so in in theory in theory it’s
117:03
okay to drive away everybody that you
117:05
don’t like and maybe even get rid of you
117:08
know most of where if not all of the
117:11
people I guess it would be most of the
117:12
people because you know they’re still
117:14
here right get rid of most of the people
117:17
you get rid of most of the people that
117:19
show up one way or another okay you
117:23
might you might ostracize them well if
117:26
that doesn’t work you gotta try
117:27
something else what do you do
117:28
embarrass them humiliate them publicly
117:30
ban them banned them that that might
117:34
work you know as the last
117:36
Resort and I imagine it is used as a
117:39
last resort to Austrian and humiliation
117:44
yeah it’s used as a last resort for
117:47
those things but what what what it’s
117:50
what is in it and I’m sure on occasion
117:52
it’s used as a last resort when it comes
117:55
to things that you know are materially
117:58
damaging to the space like theft yeah
118:02
you know and I can’t defend theft no
118:06
none of us can defend theft theft is
118:08
wrong yeah okay but I mean you can call
118:17
somebody that accidentally walks out
118:19
with a paperclip in their pocket there
118:21
you know kind of like a negligently a
118:26
thief right technically they are and
118:31
bye-bye by our rules somebody that walks
118:34
out with a paperclip should be banned
118:37
because they’ve materially damaged the
118:39
space by walking out with a paperclip
118:41
yeah and and and I think you know I
118:46
think clearly we’re looking to the whole
118:49
crispest work I’m not alluding to that
118:50
at all because I I you know that’s been
118:54
made very clear that that that that that
118:59
is that was a crime okay I don’t think
119:03
anybody is debating the facts that were
119:06
presented it’s it was it was cut and dry
119:11
now I’ve investigated some of that stuff
119:15
and now I was I was pressured bullied
119:19
really into making a decision very
119:23
quickly and I did make a decision very
119:27
quickly without really going over all of
119:30
the details but based on the opinions
119:35
and the assertions of everybody involved
119:42
certainly she is is guilty and should
119:48
not come back
119:50
well I I’m what I’ve ever seen suggests
119:58
that she used a truck that she was a
120:02
truck for personal uses that that was
120:07
being paid for with Dallas makerspace
120:09
fun that I believe that acclaim right
120:12
that’s that’s the claim the allegation I
120:17
plan and I and I think I’ve seen
120:19
evidence for that but there’s also the
120:21
part where she tried to pay it back
120:24
and there was no actual loss well worth
120:30
it like if banning is supposed to be you
120:35
know it’s a lifetime ban like the there
120:39
has to be there has to be like a
120:41
material material damage to the space to
120:43
ban according to the bylaws so surely
120:47
she had some certainty argument like
120:51
look I don’t I don’t know I don’t know
120:54
all of the facts because I was pressured
121:00
and bullied into coming up with coming
121:03
to a decision before I evaluated all the
121:06
facts but if I trust the leadership and
121:11
their assertions and their research and
121:14
their due diligence and if I support
121:19
their decision that’s the decision that
121:21
is made and I have well I have to honor
121:25
and respect that decision yeah yeah
121:28
that’s why I think you don’t have to
121:33
honor a decision that was made before I
121:36
mean didn’t you say earlier that like
121:38
this board undid the authority banning
121:42
certainly they did undo the lakota
121:46
banning in thus not honoring and
121:48
respecting their decision yeah but but
121:53
look my head I’m like I have different
121:56
values than that okay I would have
122:00
honored and respected the decisions in
122:02
order to maintain
122:04
a sense of consistency and non
122:09
duplicitous necessar word um you know it
122:15
it’s bad for the organization to you
122:18
know
122:19
flip-flop that’s true and you have to
122:21
weigh that cause for sure now there
122:25
there certainly could be cases where you
122:28
know there’s unpresentable return a
122:31
decision and you know if that’s if
122:36
that’s if that’s the case there you know
122:38
I mean you you don’t want to prevent
122:43
truth from prevailing right just because
122:47
a decision was made but I think it’s new
122:52
fact but it like they could come up but
122:54
it’s also like just reconsidering like
122:59
here’s my deal on
123:01
here’s my concern my concern is that a
123:05
lot of this is entangled in the ego and
123:10
hubris of and rule of Cody’s lawsuit and
123:15
ban okay no well yes Inc here’s the
123:24
thing though I think even if the
123:25
motivation was hey we don’t like Chris
123:29
let’s I don’t know let’s be as harsh or
123:33
let’s uh let’s try to find as many facts
123:35
let’s say about this to make Chris look
123:38
bad or something I think long as as long
123:41
as they got actual evidence and they
123:46
made the right judgment on what the
123:48
consequence should be I think the
123:50
motivation doesn’t really matter a lot
123:52
this but that’s true
123:55
my mother waiting yeah motivations not
123:58
not relevant as long as you have genuine
124:00
facts okay you’re making a and you’re
124:04
making an unbiased judgment about all
124:06
the facts yeah I’m fine I’m fine with
124:09
that you can you can be you know you can
124:11
have all the into the
124:13
the what do you call it I wouldn’t call
124:18
it revenge justice type of intentions
124:21
okay sure and that would motivate
124:25
somebody honestly that’s that’s and
124:27
that’s great the feeling that justice
124:29
needing to be served okay or you know
124:32
even retribution vengeance whatever you
124:35
want to call it yeah it’s a great
124:38
motivator to getting you know to
124:42
collecting all the facts and making sure
124:44
that the due diligence is done and and
124:47
making sure you’ll get cooperation
124:49
certainly now if all the facts are there
124:51
and it’s cut and dry it doesn’t matter
124:55
what the motivation is right as long as
124:58
you make a fair decision as long as the
125:01
decisions fair and it’s not unbiased and
125:04
there’s no you know conflicts of
125:10
interest or in some cases a relationship
125:15
bias well you know and I mean it seems a
125:23
little suspicious so the pressure people
125:26
into into accepting the facts on on
125:32
their face but I mean I can understand I
125:35
can understand some people I know I
125:37
talked to Jim about that a little bit he
125:42
put a lot of the work into it that’s my
125:45
understanding anyway and having that
125:49
type of investment in especially if it
125:53
took it like a year or something like
125:55
that having that type of investment in a
125:59
project I’m sure I’m sure there was a
126:02
huge sense of ownership there so anybody
126:05
coming along and criticizing it or at
126:07
least at the very least you know I I
126:09
don’t think I was criticizing so much as
126:12
asking for clarification on things but
126:15
because I didn’t quite understand what
126:17
was going on and I was trying to catch
126:18
up yeah okay yeah yeah that the
126:23
implication though okay what they were I
126:26
guess
126:27
inferring was that I had some sort of
126:31
bias and it’s it’s no secret that that
126:35
me and Chris hung out you know but it
126:44
doesn’t it doesn’t it doesn’t keep me
126:46
from being able to be objective about
126:50
this yes and you know I want to know I
126:54
want to know truth from falsehoods just
126:58
like everybody else okay yeah I’m a
127:00
reasonable person I don’t want to to to
127:05
be in a delusional State
127:06
okay I want to know the truth and I want
127:11
to know the facts and I want to know
127:13
that that the reasons people come up
127:16
with for things are honest right okay so
127:21
if that means that that I come along and
127:25
I want you know a lot of details the
127:29
thing I it’s not unreasonable to at
127:31
least you know from time to time ask a
127:34
question that nobody has to answer but I
127:40
was criticized for asking questions and
127:41
called a troll by Jim right
127:44
the thing is that so what happened was
127:47
James dropped a group of very folder on
127:50
Talk yeah I didn’t yell anything yeah
127:53
and I and so mark you had some questions
127:57
I had some questions and you know I just
128:00
didn’t have the context and it really
128:02
was really really simple to just give
128:05
some context so simple that Jim Hart Jim
128:09
Hartnett eventually gave the context and
128:12
it was like maybe not like half a
128:14
paragraph and I was like okay thank you
128:16
like that makes things a little bit
128:17
clearer so it’s really in in dancing the
128:21
equation you stop asking questions means
128:24
that you are on the other side
128:25
somebody’s people sure that really you
128:28
know goes along with the theme of not
128:31
valuing criticism and just just missing
128:35
all kinds of any any any whiff of
128:38
dissent really I
128:40
I’ve lost track of the number of times
128:42
me and you know any associate any any
128:47
people in association with me at all
128:50
have been called trolls and it’s is it
128:55
it bothers them so much that they think
128:57
that your only intention is bother them
128:59
well you know I’ve got better things to
129:02
do than to bother people I don’t know
129:04
these people I I don’t know these people
129:06
I don’t have any grudges against these
129:08
people these people are strangers to me
129:10
okay there’s no ill intention right and
129:14
and I don’t I don’t understand where the
129:17
paranoia is coming from
129:18
I shouldn’t it shouldn’t be at Dallas
129:23
makerspace it’s you leave it at home
129:25
yeah I think it’s just like I don’t know
129:31
it’s the very system is if they’re very
129:37
comfortable it’s comfortable and that
129:41
gives the kind of freedom to to say
129:46
whatever you want as long as it’s as
129:47
long as it’s within the bounds of the
129:50
worldview of the group yeah well I mean
130:01
the integrity of the community is still
130:04
important and you put on you put on your
130:07
managerial hat and you have to make
130:09
decisions about you know the bottom line
130:12
and and and how things are going to get
130:16
done that day you lose sight of the big
130:18
picture
130:19
and it’s real easy to get on the board
130:23
and be a middle manager because that’s
130:25
essentially what the boards become
130:28
middle management it’s if you know
130:33
there’s not a whole lot of big-picture
130:37
thinking going on we’re not looking to
130:39
change the world and on the board we’re
130:41
looking to pay the bills
130:46
we used to want to change the world we
130:49
at the very least you wanted to change
130:50
Dallas you know or our society
130:54
our future okay our bubble of friends at
130:59
the very least but not anymore
131:03
yeah as soon as like as soon as the
131:09
discussion about numbers going down I
131:12
mean I don’t know I I saw what I saw a
131:14
comment that was basically like well why
131:16
do we have to grow and I think the
131:19
answer to that is look at the mission
131:21
that’s what we have to grow and but I
131:25
think you know I think it’s your highest
131:27
aspiration is to pay the bills then why
131:32
do you exist as an organization well I
131:34
know they’ll tell you any any accountant
131:37
will tell you if you can’t pay the bills
131:39
you can’t you can’t stay in business
131:41
yeah well you can’t look no you can you
131:47
can stay in business for a for a while
131:49
well you’ll die eventually you sure but
131:54
that’s what I mean about losing sight of
131:56
the big picture right yeah a lot of
131:59
these people they’re new I mean
132:00
relatively speaking
132:02
I don’t know anybody other than other
132:06
than crap Ken okay I barely know Ken you
132:13
know he voted to have me banned to I
132:15
barely know the man
132:16
based on Lakotas quote testimony in
132:20
quote I don’t even even can’t I don’t
132:26
have any really I don’t know these
132:28
people these are strangers to me okay
132:31
but somehow through my association with
132:34
others or their associates association
132:37
with me or whatever you know I know I’ve
132:42
been targeted through multiple
132:45
generations okay since at least 2014 to
132:52
be ostracized now it hasn’t been it
132:58
hasn’t been all once it hasn’t there’s
133:00
been plenty of breaks in it but but
133:04
every once in a while when a new group
133:08
new group of people I don’t know come
133:09
around all of a sudden they start hating
133:11
my guts for no reason I can think of
133:13
other than their association with Andrew
133:16
Cody so I’m forced to conclude that some
133:26
of the group think that’s going on in
133:29
this group of people that I have no
133:31
familiarity with that I don’t know I’ve
133:33
never had conversations with but has
133:36
affiliations with Andrew Cody these
133:39
people okay
133:40
are probably being influenced by Andrew
133:43
Cody to hate my guts now that’s just a
133:53
theory I can’t I don’t know but it’s the
133:58
best theory I’ve got because it’s
134:00
happened more than once this would be
134:09
well this I guess this would be the
134:11
second iteration that I can recall with
134:16
severity and I expect we will continue
134:26
this unless we resolve our differences
134:32
somehow and let me tell you this whole
134:36
podcast or that it’s not a podcast but
134:39
this whole this whole video okay glad to
134:43
have you on by the way I really needed
134:45
to get it all out yeah all right this
134:51
this whole video has been healthy
134:52
conversations are healthy conflict is
134:55
healthy when it’s done right yeah I mean
134:58
that’s when it’s done right yeah okay
135:03
and we need the hell out have we need to
135:05
have healthy conversations that are hard
135:08
to have yeah in order to be healthy yeah
135:13
we’re not we’re not healthy as an
135:15
organization right now yeah we’re not
135:18
we’re not having those hard
135:20
conversations that resolved
135:22
that resolves conflict yeah this is a
135:26
hard thing for me to do it’s not not
135:31
something I want to put out to the world
135:34
and I haven’t for a long time I’ve kept
135:38
it to myself for years I’ve kept it to
135:42
myself totally close friends maybe as a
135:47
way of coping some of the the negativity
135:51
and the hatred that’s been cultivated in
135:54
our organization as a result and we tell
135:57
you you know people respond to that this
136:06
this type of behavior is the example
136:12
okay it’s it’s it’s it’s what people see
136:16
from leadership and they follow the
136:19
example and they Pro ate that example
136:22
and that’s what we’re doing well the
136:25
thing is when the leadership does stuff
136:26
that makes it acceptable it makes it
136:30
acceptable it’s validated it says well
136:32
they’re doing because worth it you know
136:36
especially if they’re impressionable and
136:38
can’t stand up for what’s right now this
136:42
I think this has this type of
136:43
conversation that we’re having right now
136:45
and in telling the world about that’s
136:49
healthy I think you know I think a good
136:53
analogy is like a dark dingy on a closet
136:58
or basement or something has mold
137:00
growing on it you know and I think
137:04
that’s kind of what that’s part of what
137:07
I think the board is like and I think we
137:09
need to shine some light on it and clean
137:11
it up and that requires letting people
137:15
speak for letting people point out the
137:17
obvious letting people complain and and
137:20
planned you know and then you can
137:22
respond to improve that and you know
137:25
it’s great if they’re because people are
137:26
complaining constructively and I bought
137:28
solutions that they need to offer but
137:31
valid criticism is so valuable yes
137:35
and you know to me and I don’t I don’t
137:39
know that it value is really being it
137:42
you know is really I don’t think I don’t
137:44
know if the board and the quick right
137:46
now really value that my guess is that
137:48
not everybody has the same tool the
137:51
tools in their toolbox okay not
137:56
everybody has that gift but we can teach
138:00
it to each other
138:01
we can pass along tools to each other
138:03
yeah you know it is yeah
138:08
but having this type of conversation I
138:10
think is a way of perpetuating those
138:14
types of tools and making it making it a
138:18
permanent record for the world to see
138:23
helps other people
138:24
yeah helps other people solve their
138:30
issues see some of the damage that’s uh
138:34
that’s that’s occurred with us and we
138:37
have incurred damage we have been
138:39
damaged by but you know we have damaged
138:43
us as an organization okay organization
138:47
is not building it’s not money it’s not
138:50
stuff it’s us we facilitate this stuff
138:53
but we’re the organization we damaged we
138:59
damaged us with our behavior and we need
139:05
to fix us not the books not the stuff us
139:12
yeah and you know I think for many
139:15
members they just want to stay away from
139:17
all this drama and I understand that you
139:19
shouldn’t have to deal with this know
139:21
this haha this drama is not fun to deal
139:24
with but let me tell you you can’t you
139:27
can’t just ignore it
139:29
right that’s what I was yeah you can’t I
139:31
mean you know I think I think terrible
139:34
things happen when the majority of good
139:37
people let kind of some bad people do
139:42
some bad things and so I think that you
139:46
know if you
139:49
I remember and you’re listening to this
139:51
and you you know I think you have to ask
139:55
yourself like you know if I I think I
140:01
just think you have to do your own
140:01
research and I encourage you to do that
140:03
because I think if you looked at some of
140:06
the threads on talk and some of the big
140:09
major that’s going on and I think you’ll
140:12
come to the same conclusions that I that
140:14
I come to best because I I really think
140:18
that someone’s like some of the
140:20
conclusions that I’ve come to you’re
140:21
really obvious and so I hope that people
140:26
will do their own research and and look
140:29
further into this yeah that’s yeah
140:33
that’s my call to action I guess to go
140:35
do some research and see what we’re
140:37
talking about and look at the other side
140:40
see what they’re saying consider it and
140:41
make a decision yeah I don’t don’t take
140:45
any one person’s word for anything
140:46
there’s there’s artifacts
140:49
there’s deductive reasoning you know you
140:54
don’t have to take any one person’s word
140:55
for it all right look pretty Bell you
140:58
fail look you can go look for yourself
141:00
there are plenty of ways to find the
141:03
truth and you don’t have you don’t have
141:05
to trust any one person to relative to
141:08
for that truth yeah there’s other ways
141:11
to get truth mm-hmm well we’ve got a
141:16
hard stuff I’ve got I’ve got another
141:19
interview in nine minutes
141:22
so Rafi I’ve really really enjoyed
141:26
having you on man yeah Bogg we should
141:30
have we should we should talk again um
141:34
well guys this is Rafi uh you know I I
141:38
cannot pronounce your last name is it
141:40
raccoon
141:41
reading comb Rinku so bad his breakfast
141:45
in gone home recon yeah yeah I hurt I
141:51
took I took Spanish very badly in high
141:53
school yeah raccoon or cone all right
141:58
bring think of it as ring yeah Cohen
142:00
ratone ring on
142:03
this is Rafi rakonin and mark havens and
142:07
I hope I hope you’ve learned something I
142:12
hope I’ve learned something just by
142:13
talking I did not think this was going
142:18
to make it onto onto the video but it’s
142:23
going up like subscribe and share like
142:26
subscribe and share thanks Ravi I’ll
142:31
talk to you later
142:32
all right I take their mutt

[Jeeves]

Put that crap in a document and link it.

[hon1nbo]

yeah @Lampy I’m going to hide the posts because it’s excessively long; I’d recommend a linked paste/doc, or attach a file.

EDIT: I used the Summary / Hide Details mode to compress them without hiding the post itself; find another option if you desire, but it shouldn’t take several seconds of pressing Page Down to get past the transcript.

-Jim

[Lampy]

I get it but it was discussion?! If it is in a linked document you cannot quote it easily on TALK.

Even with the slider on the right side of the screen it was sooooooooooo looooooooooong

[Scott_Blevins]

@Lampy

The BoD was trying to support the computer committee.

I seem to recall the computer committee was allowed a provisional sustainment period by the Board to demonstrate their value to DMS.

Has that happened? Are they adding enough value to warrant their existence as a viable DMS Committee that consumes DMS Resources/Real Estate?

[mrjimmy]

@Scott_Blevins

Has that happened?

Not from Raffi, but the new chair, @chimpera was engaged with reopening and has been helpful. I think software has potential, and I think Ben is capable of leading it.

[Lampy]

I think we had a lot of chairs that did not realize how much work it is keeping a committee going. They often just drift away into the night.