Why I love our sleds

Lots of committees already require that members demonstrate how to properly use their cert-required tools during the training course, in order to pass the course and receive certification. For example, Woodshop Basics involves using all of the woodshop tools in the safe way discussed by the trainer, while the trainer supervises.

The lift course as it was when I took it was very hands-off, only the trainer using the tool and pointing at things. Since it’s obvious that a new lift course would be necessary for a telescoping arm lift, it would probably be beneficial to restructure the training so each student has to go through the process of safely lifting and lowering a vehicle under trainer supervision so they can get certified. It might also help to have pictures on hand to ensure everyone knows what they’re looking for as far as safe lift points on their own vehicles.

And then, obviously lock down the lift’s power feed with an RFID scanner so only certed users can even think about playing mechanic.

Yep…using their own car, ideally. That way they know whether or not it can be lifted safely, and they know where/how to position sleds and/or lift blocks (if needed), and where best center point is. For their own car!

1 Like

I think displaying general aptitude would be sufficient, particularly as many users may have multiple vehicles they intend to use the lift on. Demonstrating comprehension of the underlying principles of safe lift use, with the trainer having a strong emphasis on educating users what those principles are, would be ideal regardless of the practice vehicle. Understanding how to identify safe lift points, for example, would be more valuable to teach than what the lift points are on a specific vehicle.

1 Like

Sure. But if they are going to have to demonstrate proficiency, including getting a car on/off the sleds safely, why not on their own car? It’s just common sense, really.

1 Like

As it happens, the demonstration vehicle for the lift course when I took it was my own, so I perhaps got a somewhat better intro than the other students in the course. But that’s the skid lift. Allocating time to lift each student’s vehicle makes sense.

So long as it’s within the context of the course, that makes sense. A type certification concept requiring demonstration of competency for each vehicle you wish to lift gets into the administrative burden I mentioned earlier.

Time concerns. If you’ve got 10 people taking the training, the time to roll 10 cars in and out of the shop eats into your schedule something fierce. It also makes the course’s training inconsistent person to person. I’d rather go through the process of demonstrating on 2 or 3 types of vehicles at the class level, and then the most common type of vehicle at the individual level, with the time it takes to roll cars in and out of the shop spent on teaching instead. Things like How do you identify a safe lift point? and How to account for weight balance, which will prepare users to critically view the task of using the lift, rather than going through the motions of how to lift one specific vehicle one time, and then roll your car back out of the shop so the next guy can roll his in and go again.

3 Likes

You seem to be being obtuse on purpose. I already quoted your very good point once, but here it is again:

That is very different from what you are now championing, i.e.

Your other points about time concerns, inconsistencies, whatever are specious. When you make up your mind what you are proposing, I’ll re-engage.

Quoting me out of context, then saying I’m the one being obtuse for giggles? Let’s play it your way then.

Proposal: Restructure the lift course to accommodate a telescoping-arm lift as follows:

  • Discuss safe lifting of vehicles at a conceptual level, such as what lift points are, and how to account for center of balance, in a classroom/forum setting. Use pictures to demonstrate safe and unsafe practices during this stage, as well as how to determine the safest way to lift a given vehicle.

  • Discuss the lift’s parts and constraints, pointing them each out on the actual lift

  • Demonstrate safe lifting of a common unibody vehicle, and a common body on frame vehicle, at the class level

  • Have each attendee demonstrate that they are able to identify the lift points and position a common demonstrator car and lift arms appropriately, and lift and lower the vehicle safely under trainer supervision


The teaching portion of the course should instill the concept of how to safely lift a vehicle, including identifying the safest way to lift any given vehicle, while the student demonstration portion should only be used as a metric for whether the student has grasped the concepts from the teaching portion. Spending time to shuffle each student’s car in and out of the shop provides less educational value than spending the same time teaching how to identify the lift points on any vehicle and safely lift it.

If the concepts have been effectively explained, using a common vehicle to demonstrate one’s understanding would be just as valid as using each student’s individual vehicle, only without the time it takes to maneuver 5 or 10 cars in and out of the shop. The time saved can be better used in more complete teaching, or to answer questions that students may have about the content of the training.

2 Likes

I can see value in demonstrating lifting major types of vehicles with variations that introduce significant considerations, such as body-on-frame, unibody, or any other common chassis variant that forces different methodology. If the class size is exceptionally small perhaps lifting students’ vehicles could be performed.

However, I suspect much of that would amount to demonstration of safe lift point identification which strikes me as being one of the core concepts along with managing COG … which, I say from my armchair under the comfort of my shade tree.

As noted in a different reply - the pinch welds are where most uni-body vehicles are lifts per the factory.

I raise my F150 with that lift via frame contact.

Once again - if you don’t know how to raise a vehicle properly on the lift we have - by all means do not use the lift.

I’ll be happy to remove your names from the lift of approved users.

Except there is a difference between the entire pinch being the designated lift point, and the corners of the pinch welds being designated.

The pads aren’t long enough to hit the corners. Combine this with how far they protrude under the vehicle, it requires blocks on the thinner portions of the pinch rather than extending over a larger area.

Here’s the general layout Honda SUVs and pickups have for jack & hoist points.

Unrelated; not all of us are lucky enough to have a simpler box on frame that allows for this without damaging brakes or other components that sit lower than the frame itself.

Even when I got trained on the lift, the trainer agreed that whilst it’s safe to lift that the pinch bends since the pads don’t reach the thicker portions. I’m not saying it’s unsafe, but I am saying that this type of lift isn’t good for all vehicles long term. There is a difference between being safe to the people and shop around it, and being safe from the perspective of potentially causing vehicle damage.

Because you have a difference of opinion choosing to ignore that pad lifts have limitations with many modern vehicles? That’s totally professional.

~H

2 Likes

To add to this:

Particularly as automakers look to shave weight and reduce cost, they’re opting for designs that only reinforce small portions of the pinch seam to handle lifting duty. They’re often not even spot-welded across the full length anymore, making the pinch seam even weaker. Let’s bear in mind, the pinch seams on a car are just a joint between two body panels, and not necessarily a structural feature, any more than a fender is structural. By using thinner material across most of the seam, and only reinforcing the ends, the automaker can save weight and money, at the expense of building a car that requires a little attention be paid when lifting it.

This image demonstrates the reinforced area of a pinch seam where jacking is safe:
image

But even beyond this, some cars do not have structurally integral pinch seams, and have dedicated reinforced jack points:

For many of these cars, it isn’t possible to use a pad lift to safely raise the vehicle, as the pads can’t hit both sets of jack points simultaneously.

The pad lift is great for many use cases, especially if you have a vehicle with a ladder frame or full-length reinforced unit rails or pinch seams, but it isn’t a perfect solution. A telescoping arm lift isn’t perfect either, but it’s always better to have multiple options available when approaching a problem.

This kind of response is really disheartening from the chair, though. Obviously nobody is advocating lifting a vehicle unsafely- that’s the whole reason the discussion of additional safe lift options has been raised. Sometimes it isn’t a case of not knowing a way- there simply is no safe way to lift some vehicles on the unit we have at DMS. People want to come up with a solution to that problem, and to hear that discussion rebuffed with a stern “gtfo” takes me aback somewhat.

2 Likes

Typical bully tactics.

1 Like

cry me a river Owen…

I certainly don’t want you or anyone else mistakenly using a tool or piece of equipment that they are not comfortable using in a safe manner.

I donated the lift - what material tools or equipment have you or the other whiners given to automotive committee? (other than bitching and whining?)

If you hate it so much, don’t use until you man up and donate a replacement of your choice - if approved that is.

No Tom, spare me the fake concern. I know how to use it safely. It’s just an inferior machine that causes damage to vehicles when used safely!

So enough of your defensive tactics, please!

@Team_Moderators

This thread is no longer useful to anyone on this planet.

:frowning:

1 Like

Another white knight that can’t discuss anything

1 Like

I think Tom is trying to avoid the iceberg that managing the safety of lifting can turn out to be.

With our current lift, there are only so many ways to do it.

It is obvious to me reading this thread that safely using a lift with arms will require much more care and intelligence.

The problems with making the lift class “hands-on” are:

  • we will be cooling or heating Carrollton for the duration

  • some members own more than one vehicle

  • many of us use tools so infrequently that each time is essentially the first time.

Maybe the solution is to have a Lift SIG to manage it.

That is enough. I’m closing this thread.

3 Likes