What materials are banned at the makerspace?

[dwolf]

I noticed some pressure treated wood being stored in the storage area outside the woodshop. It is well documented in the Woodshop rules that pressure treated wood is not allowed in the woodshop. Two other members said that pressure treated wood is banned from the entire maker space. I asked where this is posted and they did not know, I asked how they knew it was banned and they said they just knew it. I looked through the rules

https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Rules_and_Policies

And did not find the word banned or pressure.

Is pressure treated wood banned from the entire space? Note: it is clear in the Woodshop rules that it is banned in the Woodshop. Or are people making up rules for behavior they don’t want to see? Or are my search skills sorely lacking? Or is there another set of rules somewhere?

What other materials are banned across the entire maker space? How would a reasonable person find out what is and is not banned?

[simurghi]

To my knowledge:

• No firearms/parts in machine shop. This is due to not wanting to piss off the ATF.

• No galvanized steel in blacksmithing due to toxic fumes. I’d assume the same goes for welding.

• No alcohol.

• No Southern Yellow Pine in woodshop (due to the sap gumming up the machines)

• No Aerosol Sprays. I believe this is a city of Carrollton ordinance.

• No reclaimed lumber in woodshop (due to possibility of metal/dirt/etc. being in the wood)

• No pressure treated lumber inside of woodshop. I believe it’s not allowed inside of the workshop due to the chemicals used, so you need to work on it outside of the building. @TSki would know the details.

I’m not in the other areas much, so I don’t know about ceramics, electronics, science, etc.

[jast]

@dwolf

https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Rules_and_Policies

And did not find the word banned or pressure.

try source instead
source.dallasmakerspace.org
e.g.

The wiki search is more finicky, but searching for “pressure treated” gets some hints…

[dwolf]

@jast - trying “source” does find the rules for the woodshop. It is very very clear to me that pressure treated is banned in the woodshop. I don’t see where it says pressure treated in banned in the entire dallas makerspace.

I am coming to the conclusion that the ban on pressure treated outside the woodshop is a made up/wishfull thinking rule.

@simurghi - how do you know “No Aerosol Sprays” is a rule where did you find this? Or is it also a made up/wishful thinking rule?

How would a new (or even existing) member know what is banned or not banned?

[ozindfw]

@simurghi

No firearms/parts in machine shop

Not just machine shop, anywhere in DMS.

The whole list of ‘banned’ material and activities is scattered all over the wiki and source. I wish that these rules were not considered in effect until posted on Source in a coherent fashion as a list of rules and not just in Board/Committee meeting minutes.

The policy was updated in the Board Meeting

https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Board_of_Directors_Meeting_20191117#New_Business

It’s item 6.2 I wish it was actually updated somewhere on Source. It’s subtly different from what’s on the Wiki.

Dallas Makerspace Firearms Policy

All work on firearms, as defined by the Dallas Makerspace (DMS) in section 1 below, is strictly prohibited unless specifically exempted in section 2.

“Firearm” within this policy is deliberately far broader than most legal definitions

“Work” or “Working” on a firearm means creating, modifying, or assembling section 1 item(s) together with other section 1 item(s) or section 2 item(s)

Violation of this policy may lead to expulsion from DMS and/or filing a criminal complaint with the relevant authorities.

Section 1: Work on the following items is explicitly and strictly prohibited:

Firearm: a device that expels a projectile or projectiles by means of a deflagrating propellant (i.e. the deflagration or detonation of gunpowder or other similar propellant). This includes not only the BATFE definition of a firearm - its receiver - but also firearm-specific components that attach to a firearm (unless specifically exempted in section 2) including but not limited to barrels, cylinders, magazines, charging handles, safeties, buffers, actions, barrel bushings, linkages, extractors, firing pins, trunions, recoil springs, gas blocks.

Replicas: Meant to closely resemble a firearm while lacking the ability to expel a projectile or projectiles

Suppressors or Silencers: Reduce the sonic concussion of expelling a projectile or projectiles

Reloading: All activities associated with the production of ammunition, including but not limited to processing primers, gunpowder/propellant, cases, and projectiles

Section 2:

Work on the following firearm-related items are exempted, subject to conditions:

Devices that expel a projectile or projectiles by non-deflagrating propellant means: Examples include springs, compressed air/gas, electronic, mechanical action. Not exempted are components interchangeable with firearms as defined in the previous section.

Slings: Slings and sling attachments opposite point of attachment to the firearm

Fasteners and commodity hardware: Standard components used on firearms not specific to firearms

Sights: Scopes, sights, lasers, flashlights, etc not integral to the firearm

Bipods: And other firearm supports if removable without tools

Stocks and grips: May be made, refined, or modified at DMS

Props: Non-firearm devices that do not closely resemble actual firearms such as sci-fi, fantasy, steampunk creations. Must not include devices from section 1.

Checking the fit of exempted items (i.e. stock, sling, sights, etc) from section 2 to a firearm in section 1 at DMS is prohibited. Section 2 items may be separated from Section 1 items at DMS, however they are not to be attached at DMS.

[jast]

@dwolf

I don’t see where it says pressure treated in banned in the entire dallas makerspace.

As far as I know, that is true. Pressure treated wood is acceptable as long as you’re not making dust or using any of the tools inside the woodshop. But if you want to screw together deck joists made out of PT, have fun.

@dwolf

“No Aerosol Sprays” is a rule where did you find this? Or is it also a made up/wishful thinking rule?

interstlngly, this has been group-knowledge for many years, ever since this accouncement at a board meeting ruffled feathers

But that’s the ONLY place I found the phrase “aerosol” outside of the Woodshop-specific rules on Source (or wiki)…

[John_Marlow]

@dwolf

How would a new (or even existing) member know what is banned or not banned?

Most material rules are committee or machine-specific and a person would learn about those in the committee 101 or machine-specific training. Those are also supposed to be documented by the committee in the wiki or its successor. For instance, you can’t machine wood in the machine shop but wood isn’t banned space-wide. Laser has a long list of prohibited materials. You can’t cut galvanized on the plasma cutter but AFAIK there’s no reason you couldn’t bend galvanized on the brake.

---

As for space wide, let’s clarify. In theory, any space-wide prohibitions are supposed to be in the rules.

@simurghi

• No firearms/parts in machine shop

More accurately, no firearms work anywhere at DMS. (Link). You’re right that it’s a BATF limitation and has been argued ad nauseum.

@simurghi

• No alcohol.

No alcoholic beverages or other intoxicating substances. (Link).

---

The odd exception is aerosol sprays, which seems to be a prohibition but was never formally enacted in a rule.

By Announcement of the BOD 3/18/2019, but no official DMS rule emplaced, and no one can find a Carrollton ordinance:

NO AEROSOL POWERED SPRAY PAINT IS TO BE USED AT DALLAS MAKERSPACE, INSIDE OR OUT. CARROLLTON POLICE WILL FINE MEMBER IF CAUGHT. AIR POWERED PAINT, SUCH AS THE AIR BRUSH, IS ALLOWED.

[dwolf]

OK, so if a member wants to follow the “rules” they have to not only read the rules as posted on the wiki/source they also have to review all board meeting minutes (about 150 or so since the beginning). Is that reasonable?

I found this is the rules: Rule and Policy Changes.

" These rules and policies are subject to change. Changes will become effective immediately upon successful vote of adoption by the Board of Directors. The DMS Secretary shall maintain the documented version of the official DMS Rules and Bylaws. A summarized version of these rules will be posted in the space, with a link to the full rules."

Looks like some new rules never got updated in the rules documents.

[dwolf]

@John_Marlow

no one can find a Carrollton ordinance:

You jogged my memory, I remember researching this in 2019 and could find the ordinance in Carrollton either. Dallas has an ordinance that you have to have a permit to spray outside (and maybe inside as well - I don’t remember and it may have only applied to businesses not residences, the memory is going).

[John_Marlow]

@dwolf

OK, so if a member wants to follow the “rules” they have to not only read the rules as posted on the wiki/source they also have to review all board meeting minutes (about 150 or so since the beginning). Is that reasonable?

A member should not have to read all the announcements; they’re supposed to only need the rules (DMS and committees). And, of course, any posted signage in the committee areas.

I admit that I don’t have a perfect memory, but the aerosol thing is the only one that I can recall that didn’t make it into the rules.

IMO it would be appropriate for the Board to review the stated aerosol announcement and either formalize it as a DMS rule or dismiss it.

[jsnowfreedman]

So I can speak a little on the aerosols. And I actually just found this information out recently/ was going to ask for it to be restarted at a board meeting or in the rules.

The concern is at a public space like what we have, any aerosolized material in which the material or the propellant is flammable. So this is not just specific to spray paint, and there are some spray paints that are not flammable/combustible that seem to technically be fine. From what I was able to find/read between the fire codes, and the old board meetings/ talk posts this was the reason/to prevent accidental spray can flamethrowers.

I am not sure if there’s more to it than this, as I only did some fairly light research, but yeah.

[ozindfw]

@John_Marlow

I admit that I don’t have a perfect memory, but the aerosol thing is the only one that I can recall that didn’t make it into the rules.

I believe the Aerosol issue is more complex. It’s a Fire Marshall thing as well as EPA. The Fire Marshall has a lot of leeway and is not limited to written regs. EPA regs are voluminous. EPA limits are one of the reasons our powder coat booth is the size it is. Any bigger and a bunch of rules kick in.

Landlord probably doesn’t want paint in the parking lot. My commercial leases prohibit it.

There’s also the fact that not all board actions are limited to external regulations. I for one don’t want overspray on my car in automotive, or my expensive wood in the woodshop. What would the odds be if rattle cans were permitted?

[John_Marlow]

I’m not suggesting that the aerosol “announcement” be changed. I’m only suggesting that it be formally codified, one way or the other.

[ozindfw]

@John_Marlow

I’m not suggesting that the aerosol “announcement” be changed.

Didn’t think you were, was just trying to expand on what you’d said.

A lot of folks point to “there’s no Carrolton code requirement.” It’s not the only consideration.

[MBertrand98]

@John_Marlow

The odd exception is aerosol sprays, which seems to be a prohibition but was never formally enacted in a rule.

By Announcement of the BOD 3/18/2019, but no official DMS rule emplaced, and no one can find a Carrollton ordinance:

NO AEROSOL POWERED SPRAY PAINT IS TO BE USED AT DALLAS MAKERSPACE, INSIDE OR OUT. CARROLLTON POLICE WILL FINE MEMBER IF CAUGHT. AIR POWERED PAINT, SUCH AS THE AIR BRUSH, IS ALLOWED.

Spray paint makes sense. People seem to be confusing the difference between aerosol in general and spray paint. God forbid I spray the Febreze after taco Tuesday or use WD40 in automotive or machine shop

[ESmith]

@ozindfw

Landlord probably doesn’t want paint in the parking lot.

Not up on the current lease particulars, however in the past they have EMPHATICALLY disapproved of outdoor painting of any form they become aware of.

[ESmith]

@John_Marlow

More accurately, no firearms work anywhere at DMS. (Link). You’re right that it’s a BATF limitation and has been argued ad nauseum.

I surely don’t want to re-litigate that issue - was thorny enough just re-writing that section for (better) clarity.

[steve_a]

Not to get off the topic because there are other things banned but
The maker space is not a business or a manufacturer but certain activities come under those rules if only because, there’s no other good fit and we are in a business park. A manufacturer, who makes a painted product, has to ACCURATELY report the amount of paint it uses. Additionally, paint has to be safely administered in an appropriate paint booth system with an outside exhaust that meets certain requirements. As a volunteer group, there is no way to keep track of AND accurately document paint usage PLUS we do not have a spray paint booth. (No body even THINK of using the powder coat booth… that’s definitely a NO!) It’s mainly logistic issues that we can’t meet. That’s the simple explanation, it’s a little more complex but you go crazy trying to make heads or tails of the ordinances. I’m not sure why it actually comes under the Fire Department’s jurisdiction; seems like OSHA is a better fit… regardless, the fines are HEFTY and just not worth the risk. If you have to spray paint something, please just do it at home and help us be a good neighbor in Carrolton.

[ESmith]

@steve_a

A manufacturer, who makes a painted product, has to ACCURATELY report the amount of paint it uses. Additionally, paint has to be safely administered in an appropriate paint booth system with an outside exhaust that meets certain requirements. As a volunteer group, there is no way to keep track of AND accurately document paint usage PLUS we do not have a spray paint booth

That’s the issue in a nutshell - as an organization our precious volunteer resources are consumed by issues critical to the organization’s survival and then core operations. These can be met with our best effort level of service while the requirements of a paint booth cannot.

[Edenblue]

Fabric spray glue is used a lot in dye sub, embroidery and sewing to temporaily hold something down while you work with fabric. I remember specifically asking whether CA could use this while I was the Vice Chair of CA, and was told it was fine.