Upcoming Project Classes

For all those folks who’ve asked me about project classes, we have a discussion coming up at the next Member Meeting that is greatly going to effect our ability to hold some of the classes you’ve requested. If you can attend the meeting, please do so and support CA in maintaining some flexibility in how students can obtain materials for classes. If you don’t have your voting rights yet, please request them if you can or at least come add your voice to the chorus.

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/calling-on-you-guys-to-represent-honorarium-biz-at-the-member-meeting/13924?u=bitta

If DMS has to supply everything, there will be no specialty hardware, linen thread, color choices in some cases or high end leathers at all because CA simply can’t afford to supply them. If instructors want to supply them to you, then they will be forfeiting honorarium and may have to start adding on additional class fees with all the headaches of Eventbrite. :disappointed: None of us want to do that, but I’m sure you’d agree instructors’ time in a hands-on project class is worth at least their gas money & lunch especially when they’re willing to bring the extra-special good stuff for you to use in class.

THEN…after all that - please be on the lookout on the calendar for a leather covered belt buckle class. This will happen regardless of the outcome of the meeting as CA will be supplying all the materials, so no worries there. Even if a buckle is not your thing, Nick will be teaching lacing, using clicker dies to cut leather with a hand press and larger scale debossing/stamping with laser cut dies and his finishing technique to make the image really pop - REALLY COOL STUFF, kids. :+1: If you want to get leathery, be on the lookout - it will be held after Turkey Day. :poultry_leg:

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I do not appear to be able to open your link.

Hmmm…how about this?

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/calling-on-you-guys-to-represent-honorarium-biz-at-the-member-meeting/13924

Nevermind the link…I’m a idiot. :confounded:

Bitta I have no problem with you making what I said public but it just doesn’t make sense in this conversation.

The only limitation on you as an instructor, is that you cannot claim Honorarium AND pay yourself a Teaching Fee from a third party payment system like EvenBright. If you need to charge for materials, that is OK, just add a cost to the class/event via the DMS system.

If you don’t think $50 is worth your time, setup your class/event elsewhere and charge whatever the market will pay. But teachers cannot double dip and get paid from both system. Doing this intermingles DMS’s responsibilities with yours and puts our organization at risk.

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No Lampy, the thing is that in order to get reimbursed for materials through DMS I have submit receipts. When I pay $280 for a leather side that is 20 some-odd square feet and only need to provide the students with perhaps .75 square feet, how do you want that done? Often, with already finished hides, I would bring several for them to choose from. Also, I keep the original receipts for business purposes.

And the rule isn’t written that way…it says if we receive money from “any other sources”.

What we have been doing is bringing the material to class, letting the students that show up pick the color, tannage and finish they want and then cutting what they need for the class off of the hides. I may bring several hides from them to choose from - how can we do that transaction in advance through a class fee? Some might opt for the $285 dollar hide and pay $20 for it because it’s going to be grandpa’s Christmas present and the others might opt for the $70 hide and pay $6 for leather because they’re just doing it for the practice/experience.

Class fees would be used to recover DMS supplied materials and consumables and for some classes that’s fine, however, for a lot of the types of project classes folks are asking for, it would not. We’re not talking glue and rivets, here, just SPECIALTY materials.

Finance was saying last weekend they DIDN’T want the administrative headache of running the paperwork for reimbursing instructors for materials.

Why does it matter to the BoD WHERE students source their leather or other specialty materials in the quantities they need them? I have bought materials from instructors in classes at DMS before, I guess I don’t see the issue - if I think their price is fair why not? …and most often it beats what I’d have to pay to buy and ship it.

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Which is pretty clear, unless you are paid for your expenses through DMS, then you are not eligible for honorarium. Not saying I like it, but that is the current rule. Come thursday and see if you can get the rule changed.

With the current system, the means is for the committee to purchase one or more of these hides and charge the students so that they pay DMS rather then the teacher. Doesn’t need to affect how you teach the classes.

[quote=“bitta, post:7, topic:14014”]
Why does it matter to the BoD WHERE students source their leather or other specialty materials in the quantities they need them?[/quote]

Others have stated the concerns, and while I don’t share them, they are valid.

  1. How do we know the fees actually are for expenses, and not simply additional revenue for the instructor.
  2. If the instructor gets into an IRS audit, they could request information from DMS, which would require us to pay an accountant or place additional burden on the volunteers.
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Walter, I can’t attempt to justify asking CA to spend that kind of money on leather that may or may not get used in a class. They have a monthly budget of $400 to cover ALL of the various departments. It would be ridiculous.

Seriously, how would DMS get pulled into an IRS audit when I sell $10 of leather directly to Joe Blow who happens to attend a class any more than the home owners’ association would get pulled into an audit where I sold my old lawnmower to a neighbor kid for $10 so he could tinker with the engine.

To go all off the rails a bit… If the board is going to make this determination without further definition or clarification in the written rule, then they are pretty much saying ANY financial remuneration or reimbursement accepted by someone who also accepts honoraria for classes must run through their books. They also should define “any other sources” since the rule doesn’t specify the purpose for which it was paid, when it was paid and “any source” is inclusive of all possible sources, then my paycheck from work and my birthday money from Grandma counts for that, too, and she’s been dead for 10 yrs. AND they might want to clarify and state HOW associated with the class the transaction must be either by time, locale, individuals involved, etc for this rule to apply to it. If I pick up lunch for a friend who happens to be a student as well on my way to class, does that need to run through the books before they can pay me back? It is a student giving me money for something he’s going to consume, after all. Holy cats, why meddle and open up that can of worms?! You can’t write the rule broadly and expect to later interpret it with specificity.

How do you know it’s for materials? Well…

  • use the new feedback thing and ask the students after class to verify
  • students would be paying commensurate to their choice of material (and some would probably bring their own leather as we teach them how and where to purchase leather in the Basics class)
  • it’s done transparently in the class
  • better yet, in an organization run on an honor system to a large degree - why assume off the bat that it is not?

People can bring their own leather or buy it from me, why do they care? but I see no way to account for that with a predetermined set class fee that’s collected in advance.

They trust us or they don’t.

Please don’t limit our creativity or the quality of the materials we can supply to our classes at DMS. What’s the value in that? How can educational space do that with impunity and clear conscience?

Bitta, understand that I do not support the rule restricting honorariums that was implemented.

That said, I don’t think your concern is valid. There is NO $400 limit on CA. They could easily obtain funding to purchase the materials and charge for them in classes (hence to keep the funding for new materials). This is no different from how the paints, sewing supplies, buttons, and a host of other items are handled.

Your lunch analogy is way over the top Bitta. The only way we are going to get this issue solved is if we try to remain rational and calm, especially during the meeting.

I provided the reasons for the rule, and it is worthwhile asking WHY we don’t ‘trust’. Sadly we do have thieves and con artists as members. Such things do sometime require inconveniencing the many because of the few.

BTW, a student has NO WAY to verify the ACTUAL cost you paid for the item… Hence they CAN"T verify it was only for an EXPENSE.

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Seems to me, like any financial decision, a capital expenditure could be created to purchase, maybe $1000-$2000 worth of leather materials. Then as long as appropriate fees are charged for replacement, then the fees create a perpetual supply of funds to purchase new stock as needed. So then leather has their own P&L for their needs. Seems like it would solve the personal expenditure issue.

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I feel like the numbers you are playing with between reimbursement and charging for your supplies and not having to submit receipts are much larger than the honorarium. You could forgo the $50 to you and keep the excess stuff.

Or just have all of the honorarium go to CA. Is the $50 going to you really the breaking point here? So much so that you wouldn’t be able to teach classes?

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got another project class I’m thinking about. I guess it’s going to depend on how the belt buckle one goes.
Project class submitted, waiting on approval.

It’s not a limit, but that is the monthly allocation - Nicole just recently got it increased. AND we have no where to store the little leather we have let alone buying more. CA buying leather is simply impractical.

…lol and an IRS audit pulling DMS in over a matter of $.41 is no less fantastical? BUT they wrote the rule they way they wrote it.

No, the student can’t verify what I paid for the leather, but if they certainly would have an idea if the price was fair and reasonable and if people who brought their own stuff were charged.

The points are, Walter,

  • the rule is poorly written as it stands and hopefully @SewingStuff has come up with some clarifications/refinements to it to make it less nonsensical.
  • it’s inappropriate and insulting to be assumed to be doing something wrong in a community that’s touts a system of honor, respect and excellence.

When the biggest makerspace is primarily only teaching people how to use a tool and not how to actually make things and then incorporates rules limiting access to materials, I just gotta call BS. I’m sure there’s a fix to this and hopefully something resembling sanity will come out of the meeting.

The allocation IS NOT the only means to fund this. As mentioned request a capitol fund from board, then use the FEES charged to students to keep restocked. Also, as you said, the students are perfectly capable of purchasing specialty colors and types themselves. We are not a storefront. Storage is NOT an insurmountable issue, and frankly we can purchase off site storage for a small monthly fee…

My $ example was just that an illustration. We have had people charge MUCH more than that, and because of problems DMS paid out thousands… As I said thieves and con artists ARE among us.

No, they can only say what THEY would pay for said item, not what YOU would pay. And reimbursement means that you are covered for your actual expense, not what the material might be worth to others.

The rule was not written by @SewingStuff or myself. And it isn’t up to US to rewrite it. That is what the meeting is for. By all means draft up replacement language to submit for member consideration.

It is NOT inapprproriate when we HAVE has members/teachers doing things wrong, illegal, and unethical. We KNOW that the honor system DOESN’T work with 1000+ members. Hence why CA, for example, has an issue with donations/payments not covering the cost of materials used…

Again, you are not conveying reality. The rule DOES NOT limit access to materials. It is simply requiring the documentation that ANY business would. And remember we are a business not a collection of friends who have get togethers…

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They can…if they want to spend $160 to buy 44 sq ft of the 4 oz green pebble grain leather they wanna make a credit card case for Aunt Sue out of. Some folks are super gung ho and able to invest in large quantities of materials for a single project, some aren’t. And why would they if you’re not sure they even LIKE leatherworking? Why limit people to making one thing one way in one color when you don’t have to? Some of the choices and options are what entice people to make the project in the first place. (Oh, I can tool it, or I can put my name on it or I can make a green one?..count me in!)

You cannot store leather that way, @wandrson - heat and/or humidity DESTROY it. Why buy high end goods we might not use for a long time and then pay to store them?

Then you get rid of them and prosecute them. You don’t go around assuming everyone else is, too. The Supreme Court threw out Stop and Frisk, ya know.

Yes, it does. If instructors cannot provide additional materials to students then what else do you call that?

Ya know what…nevermind… this does not have to be my problem. :no_mouth:

You CAN rent storage locations that are climate controlled. And if they want to LEARN how to make a credit card case they can with the materials DMS is willing to provide. If they want to use different materials, then they can buy it directly or ask to purchase on Talk/Maker trade and buy from those like yourself.

As long as it is outside of the classroom/teacher thing.

You need PROOF (and in some cases to find them after they have absconded with the money). The FACT is that it has happended and the board has a fiduciary responsibility to protect our finances.

AGAIN, If the instructor wants to provide additional materials, then submit receipts or have the Chair authorize a PO to purchase. OR forgo your honorarium, charge for materials and a fee for your teaching. We DO have members who do that as well.

Yeah, I know - and they still get up to 90 degrees in the summer and you get other people’s mice and roaches, been there, done that a couple of times, won’t again.

Yes, the BoD has to protect our finances, buying high end goods to throw into storage doesn’t seem like a good way to do that. If there’s no have proof, how was it determined a fact?

LOL, define that…and that’s not what the rule says.

The chair can’t authorize a PO to purchase things ahead of time when we are providing students a selection to choose from IN THE CLASS.

Enough :no_mouth:

The proof is in the judgement for the thousands she owes us if we can find her.

YOU are clearly NOT reading the rule. It applies ONLY to class fees obtained from students and the honorarium. Though admittedly the rule needs some work. Blame the board that created it for that.

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I’m reading it the way the rule is written…kinda the only way to read it since it’s words on the page and not what they meant by what they thought they said when they wrote it. Just stop, already.