Hoping to leverage group experience with a charging issue I’m having with my 94’ Toyota Pickup, 22RE 4 CYL, automatic transmission.
History: A few years back I replaced the mechanical fan with an electric one (draws about 20A) that when coupled with the after market stereo and amplifier put a strain on the alternator (60A I think, OEM) so I upgraded to a 130A aftermarket unit.
Symptoms: Occasionally it’s acting like a dead battery (clicking on start) however I can sometimes recover in-place by cleaning and tightening the battery terminals, which are a bit overloaded with wiring. Charging the battery also can help however it’s generally reading 12.4 to 12.6 volts. I’ve replaced obvious problems like a badly corroded ground to block cable however I continue to have issues.
Wondering if anyone has any tips or tricks I could deploy to pin this down with certainty? I’m thinking bad connections, not so great battery (3 years old but I’ve run it down before) or something else entirely.
I don’t claim to be an expert nor did I stay at a holiday inn. Have you looked into replacing the battery say with an AGM battery? They tend to hold up better especially in the heat. The normal battery from what I was told has over 120 parts internally. Full disclosure is I do work for JCI who makes a bunch of batteries including the optima. I just re-did some of my training for that stuff. This is where I get my 120 parts from. The Optima has about 30 parts. The stringers that tie the battery are made of 99.99% pure lead to prevent off gassing. I suspect that the Oddessy batteries are quite similar in construction. I’d also recheck all your connections. That has been a source of issues for me in the past. I recrimped & soldered new ends of my leads & added the marine/ military style connectors on my Diesel Excursion. I personally do prefer AGM batteries as they seem to last longer than standard batteries. My battery in my Jeep just died after about 5 years & that was only because I didn’t drive or run it regularly in the past 18 months.
If the battery voltage is good when trying to start then it might be a bad starter. I had a 1990 Pickup with similar symptoms and it was the starter. Another test would be to thump the starter and try again.
I’ll look into marine/military style connections. I have quite a few extra wires now as well as larger ones (the 130A alternator came with a very serious gauge 1 or so copper cable which I installed. I’ve never felt good about the connections though.
It will always turn over a bit and it has a rebuilt starter, I should have mentioned that above and this makes me think it’s not a starter or interlock issue.
I’ve had the battery tested at Autozone but that’s perhaps not a very thorough test.
I have other ideas, but this would be the most likely, in my opinion, from the info presented so far (especially if your battery is holding 12.5v when the starter is engaged; that means it’s not even trying to start, which is another symptom in the worn-out contacts presented in this video).
In the interest of full disclosure, I did NOT watch all of this video, but it seemed to hit the high points.
Also, I cannot stress how easy this is, and how much more I recommend doing this to keep your factory Toyota starter vs. trading it in for a “lifetime warranty” one from you-know-where.
You say you replaced the battery negative to block cable. What about the condition of the block to body strap and its connections. I’m thinking it may either be under sized and now damaged, or just worn out from old age.
To check for cable conditions, use a “voltage drop test”. Once while cranking, again while running (charging implied). I have fixed many cars (though not usually Toyotas) due to excessive voltage drops. Usually it’s an undersized wire or poor route from the alternator to the battery, but YMMV.
Darn, I should have been even more descriptive; I’ll get a couple cranks and then fast clicking solenoid. The same thing I’d expect if the battery was almost dead but had just enough left to crank a couple times.
One other thing I forgot to mention: With RPM above idle I get 14+ volts but stopped with automatic in drive or reverse with everything running it can drop to 11.5 - 12.5 range. Could my alternator be under performing or bad or could I have a slightly lose belt? I’m not hearing any belt noise.
In theory you could put an amp clamp. I’d guess if your voltage output is dropping your amperage would be higher. Also keep in mind that the alternator is rated at an amperage at a rpm. Perhaps you could find the performance curve of your alternator & check it against that.
Sort of.
Voltage is easy; check with voltmeter from center of output post (+) to case (-). You should be seeing >12.5, hopefully more like 14v.
Do the same at the battery, center of + post to center of - post; it should be the same as at the alternator.
Amperage is harder, but yeah, an amp clamp is easy enough, if you have one.
Diode ripple is harder still, and out of reach of most home mechanics, but a 'scope can show you ripple; it’s figuring out if it’s excessive that’s not as easy.
If you happen to have access to them (I’m guessing no one at the 'space does) there are handheld DVOMs which will do all this.
Larger (higher amp rating) alternators frequently have trouble with lower RPM situations. There are a number of possible cures: raise idle RPM (there are limitations, but if 100-200 RPM make the difference, this could do it); change alternator pulley for faster alternator spin; change back to the original alternator and see what it does (seriously, 60 amps is plenty for most situations)…
Adding the 20A fan on top of everything seemed to take me outside the planned power budget but maybe you’re right. I found that bad ground wire later and maybe I jumped the gun on the bigger alternator. I do need to go see if I can find the specs on it. Do we have any kind of optical RPM sensor in the shop if I wanted to get a read on the RPM’s at idle at the alternator?
It’s certainly possible that the fan would push it over the edge, especially with some of the other factors like presumably full-bore A/C operation, being fuel injected, Texas Heat, and being 22 years old…
I am not aware of an optical tachometer, but just because I don’t know about it, doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
Man, I think I have too many tools. Ohh wait that’s not possible. I will be at the space Monday, if it can wait,if you need to use a DC amperage amp meter Fluke 189 with AC/DC amp clamp. I do also have a tach as well so we can see what the actual rpm is on the alternator.
Thanks everyone. It’s not urgent, it’s just eating up cycles in my head and I want to solve it You’ve given me some things to check and some potential next steps depending on what I find out, that’s what I was hoping for!
The clicking sound you hear is the starter solenoid not engaging… Lots of other good suggestions here, but the first thing I’d do is unhook, then re-hook the grounds from the starter to the chassis and then to the battery. If you’ve got 12+ volts there shouldn’t be any problem powering the starter, but with a bad ground, it may never engage.
Whist checking the ground connections - take the time to check the positive connections as well (this should be a no brainer).
Get the battery load tested as well (that is free at most auto parts stores). Turning on all the accessories and headlights isn’t a “good” home based alternative. Even better would be to get the vehicle’s charging system “load tested”.
check the resistance in the battery cables. Many cables with corrode well into the plastic sheathing. One other thing - check the cable to terminal connections. This may sound trivial but the generic lead terminals are piss poor at best when compared to what came on Japanese and German cars.
If you have to “wiggle” them - that is something you definitely want to address first. There should be no wiggle possible.
Please let us know how it works out for you - it may help others.
After eliminating a few things here I’m currently thinking I may have the wrong sized pulley on my alternator or a defective/wrong unit. Works fine at startup or cruising along at speed however when warmed up at low idle I get 11.5-12v. As I rev up a bit I get to 14.2-14.5v. I think at idle I should be getting 13.5+?
Any advice on getting a smaller pulley or should I just replace the unit? Doesn’t seem like this could be a problem with the built in voltage regulator. A remanufactured model from the parts store would definitely be the correct model for the car and with a new properly sized pulley I believe.
You’ve given me some things to check and some potential next steps depending on what I find out, that’s what I was hoping for!