[Shelved] Mini-Hackathon - Automate Woodshop Dust Collection

Since recently becoming chair of Digital Media, I have decided that we will begin hosting quarterly hackathons and monthly mini-hackathons.

We will be hosting our first Mini-Hackathon soon. Something wanted at the space is dust collection automation in the woodshop: Automate the dust collection system

Although I have not done any testing, I believe this can be accomplished with security system door magnets > Arduino > relay

This post is to determine the level of interest in this event and no date has been set. If you are wanting to participate, please join this thread to show your interest.

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I’m no programmer, but it would be cool to participate in something like this.

If we keep the manual dust collection gates then lockout switches on them would be a good way to ensure that the assigned one is open before you could power on the device.

Or we could trigger on when the gate is opened, preventing the dust collector from running with all gates closed and streamlining workflow. When I am the only one working on one side of the shop or the other, it feels like I spend more time operating the dust collection system than working wood.

Go to tool, set up, open gate, walk to dust collector, turn on, walk to tool, turn on, do work, turn off, walk to dust collector, turn off walk to tool, close gate.

We could easily cut out both trips to the dust collector. It might make people more likely to use the dust collector, but I wouldn’t bet on that.

I’m gonna be a Debbie downer here and say we shouldn’t do the woodshop dust control for this. Its under fire marshal scope right now and we need professional level attention to the dust problem.

Alternative could be a working RFID system for the tools that need training. No fire marshal involvement on that one and it’s something we need that so many people have said they would do.

See @Tapper post on this too

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@Raymond It would be great to have your participation. I definitely like the idea of ensuring the dust collection for a specific tool is operating before using it.

@carpa This is exactly what we had in mind, your participation would be appreciated!

@PearceDunlap This would in no way effect the fire marshall’s concern. It would be a low voltage system with the exception of a small relay which will be housed in a metal, fireproof junction box.

This is not as complicated of a project to design/create as one might think.

Also, what we would be creating could be easily transferred to any dust collection system we may use in the future.

Side note: We do currently have members working on an RFID power lockout.

I’m not saying it’s complicated. I’m saying we shouldn’t implement it at all. It’s a band-aid. If there’s one thing we always forget at the makerspace it’s that “temporary” doesn’t exist. This would get put in and then people would say it’s good enough and we don’t need to replace it with a real system because it’s a waste of money.

It also puts a huge liability on the space or the people who maintain the system. Guess who gets the finger pointed at them when a fire starts? The project team. Guess who doesn’t get covered by insurance when they find out we used a diy project as a safety measure? The DMS. Guess who gets shut down when we don’t have insurance? The DMS.

I’m speaking from experience here at the space. And yes we sure do have people working on the interlock, we have been for almost as long as I have been a member. Lets use the hackathon to give it a boost. Maybe it will help get past a stumbling point.

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It’s actually not a band-aid. Once again, it has nothing to do with the fire marshall’s concern. It is not a temporary fix because it’s not a fix at all, nor does it address concerns of the fire marshall, nor is it meant to. People will not say it’s good enough because it doesn’t have anything to do with the new proposed system. We are discussing something that has nothing to do with the fire marshall.

It’s a complete coincidence this is being discussed a the same time as the issue with the fire marshall. Not sure of any other way to get this point across except to state in bold letters: “THIS IS NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM TO BE CONSIDERED A SAFETY MEASURE.” Automated dust collection would be purely for convenience and NOT related to safety in anyway.

To state again, in case it was overlooked in my previous post: This would be a low voltage system and would not be considered a fire hazard.

Also, although I have not personally seen it, it’s my understanding that the RFID interlock is working now. If not, I agree it would be a great project for a future hackathon.

Thank you for your feedback!

Only when it stops working and the users of the shop ignore it thinking all is well. This should be a professionally designed an implemented part of the wood shop. We can now afford to do things correctly that improve safety and reduce our liability.

Not to say there is not something in wood shop that we can do that is hackerthon-ish. I get the team building experience and other general fun of contributing to DMS. Just my personal opinion that this is not it.

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It isn’t the low voltage that is the fire risk, it is the fact that the automation affects the concentration of finely powdered organic matter in the air. (See grain silo explosions) That this system would become part of the controls to compensate for that risk is why it is an issue.

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I have a hard time believing the wood shop is insurable as it stands, if adding a selfmade automation system to the dust collectors would make it somehow more hazardous and less insurable…

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@Lampy If, for some unexpected reason, the automation stops working and dust collection system doesn’t turn on, a member would hear (or not hear) it and post the issue on talk, then walk over to the remote control and turn on the appropriate dust collector.

Once again, I repeat, and have no other words to express my point on this topic, but automating the DC has absolutely nothing to do with safety, it would only be beneficial as a convenience.

Currently we are using a remote control system which uses a relay to turn the DC on/off. With the proposed system, the DC would be turned on/off via a store-bought relay, very similar in design to the one currently being used, but would be triggered by a blast gate opening/closing vs the member walking over to the remote and clicking on/off. To repeat, this is absolutely in no way related to safety or liability.

Just because we, as an organization, can afford to purchase products, doesn’t mean we should neglect the whole reason why we are an organization in the first place, to make things.

@kbraby Okay, now I can’t tell if you guys are just F’n with me as part of a new chair hazing or you genuinely don’t understand what we are proposing.

If you are indeed being sincere, please forgive my ignorance and explain how an automated blast gate which turns the dust collectors on/off could, in any way, affect the concentration of finely powdered organic matter that could potentially explode in the air with any more or any less probability than using the remote control we are currently using to turn DC on/of.

We aren’t fucking with you, this is actually a thing that we are under scrutiny for with the FM. Seriously look up dust explosions.

Other things have been proposed too, the interlock system could be expanded to the entire space. Just because you think there is a group working on it doesn’t mean there can’t be a hackathon for it.

We arent trying to shit all over the hackathon idea, this is coming from a group of makers who have been from the space for a long time and has seen how our diy solutions pan out.

You just picked the one thing that we should not be trying to do a diy solution for

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My experience with Fire Marshalls. If they are already looking at an area for further enforcement, installing anything without a UL listing, a permit, and a city electrical (or other required) inspection can escalate their concerns and result in a shutdown of the facility. They really want to have the feeling you are going to not only fix the problems they brought up, but other things they saw and didn’t bother putting on the inspection and in a manner showing you have a strong desire to comply with all the Life Safety covered by the NFPA codes. And I have seen them shut down facilities more than once.

And the same one already made us take down the diy sound dampening panels filled with rockwool in the classrooms because they didn’t have stickers on them

Excellent.

There has been a nagging need for an electronic queue for 3D Fabrication and Laser Cutting. Such a project carries nearly zero risk and would be a noticeable improvement. It is my understanding the project has been started but, obviously, is not yet delivered. Instead of dust collection I suggest building a part of the electronic queue that has not yet been implemented be the first event (or improving an existing part).

@PearceDunlap Yes, I understand the seriousness of dust explosions as I have taken preventative cautions in my own dust collection system. My question to you is this, very simply, how could an automated blast gate which turns the DC on/off via low voltage, in any way, potentially cause an explosion with any more or any less probability than the remote control we are currently using? Please be technical as possible, I will follow.

@cdavis714 All components which will be used in the proposed automated dust collection will be UL class. A permit and city electrical inspection is not required for this type of installation, just as it’s not required for the use of a remote start as we are currently using.

@Brian Queue kiosks are high on the list as one of the quarterly weekend hackathon as these will take more time than 4-5 hours to develop.

I will readily concede that I am not an expert in industrial accidents, but I usually read in detail any well written analysis of a major accident that I find at a medium to reasonably detailed level. One thing you will very often find is that there is no single factor that could have caused the issue by itself. And that each fault is often fairly innocuous by itself. But too often three, four, or more of these fairly innocuous issues stack in a perfect storm, causing explosions, building collapses, airplane crashes, etc. I honestly wish that industrial accident post mortems were required reading in the data security industry, because it gives you a real world tangible appreciation for defense in depth, and how statistical clusters do result in things that are unlikely to all go wrong at once will in fact statistically all go wrong at once from time to time in the real world.

On top of that, while most of the power tools with blades should be producing chips too large to contribute, all the power sanders, and the multicam (cutting MDF) are capable of producing dust that between fine particulate size and potential concentration has the potential to cause more damage to property and life than if Hatchers were allowed to store 20 to 50 pounds of black powder.

Then consider that not counting the festool and other shop vacs, there are three dust collectors in the wood shop. Given that we have so many cases today where people don’t open blast gates when they start, or don’t close them when they are done, or fail to stop or start the collectors, or even willfully continue working when they know someone is taking the drum out to empty, consider the following scenario:

The system has gone live, everything is working as expected, and people start to rely on it. A few weeks, months, or years later, some of the switches/sensors start operating erratically. Maybe late at night people notice, because they are the only one using tools. But during the day, someone is using a tool hooked up to one dust collector, and someone opens a gate to a tool on the second dust collector, the system malfunctions and doesn’t start the second one. Let’s say the user is even conscientious enough to listen, and hears the other dust collector running. But because they have always been able to rely on the system, they don’t know which collector they should expect to be running, or even be aware that they can trace back the lines to see, because they may never have had to, or have become complacent about it, because the system always worked before. This is a far too real world scenario where the existence of such a system and its malfunction could be one of the dominoes leading to bad circumstances.

20 years ago, I probably would have been arguing that it couldn’t make things worse. Now, I fully agree that it can be an issue with the fire marshal, and that any fire engineer is going to want all aspects of the collection system to come from reputable manufacturers, and that any engineer asked to put his stamp on a system is likely to refuse or hesitate strongly if they are aware of a DIY system like this as part of the solution. But the biggest issue is that I am now well aware that systems designed to make things better, that can’t by themselves cause an incident, can in fact still be a contributing factor.

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Thank you for your thoughtful response. I can tell it was very thought out.

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After getting back in town today, I just watched Friday’s board meeting for the first time in full. I concede my position and agree that we should table this project for a possible later date.

I appreciate everyone’s time who participated in this thread.

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Just a note if you decide to pursue this later. In the electrical codes (NFPA 70), any voltage above 1.2 volts is considered capable of causing an explosion in a dusty environment. If you are using a higher voltage, special methods are required to maintain the safety of the equipment, such as using “intrinsically safe” or “explosion proof” components as part of a properly designed system.
I am assuming the fire safety engineer being hired will tell us if our airborne dust levels could be high enough to warrant all this hassle. I hope not (and expect not), as we would have a HUGE expense to upgrade everything to electrically hazardous location standards.
On the other hand, I think it would be great to design this just for the intellectual exercise. It sounds like it would be fun!

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