REQUEST: Automotive bay scheduling system

Automotive
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Hello all,

I’ve only been a member for a few weeks, but one thing I noticed right away was a lack of a scheduling system for the automotive bay. I realize that FCFS is the current “system” in place, and that seems fair, but I was hoping we could develop or implement a scheduling system for the lift and bay. I’m not asking this because I don’t get access, I’m asking this to be completely fair to everyone else, because I would use the Automotive bay so much that others would never get a chance to use it, and that’s not fair to everyone else.

I don’t care what game you play, campers are derided, amirite?

So let me give you a couple examples. All things being equal, all storage rules being followed, all details complied with, there are still situations where I could be an inconvenience to others:

  1. Lots of stuff to do on one car. We have a car that needs O2 sensors, a muffler clamp, an exhaust gasket, a power steering line, two flex discs, a brake caliper, a trans fluid change and an LOF. Each one of those activities is small, maybe 2 hours each, but the whole car can be repaired in 8. In the current FCFS rule, I pull in at Noon and someone with limited time comes in at 6 and waits 2 hours until they’re sick of me and leaves 5 minutes before I do, leaving an empty bay. Worse, if our vastly amateurish automotive skills can’t do this in 8 hours, we can just take our sweet time and deprive others use of the bay for as long as we’re wrenching. Doesn’t seem fair.

  2. One major job. We have another car that needs an engine change. This is a complex operation that conceivably could take 2 days, but we amateurs don’t know for sure. Part of this problem is that we wait our turn (or push the car straight in), and begin work. Someone comes along and only needs to replace a brake caliper, and I could easily feel guilty if I don’t push my car out until they get their shorter repair done. I know this, because my opinion is that it’s kinda rude to ignore the brake caliper person because “I was there first.”

So my request for a scheduling system comes from a desire for fairness in a facility I could easily spend 80% of my time in. Here’s how I think it would help, using the above 2 scenarios:

  1. If I block out 8 hours to get this work done, I know I have a finite amount of time. If 7 hours has gone by and I don’t think I can get one of those jobs done in the remaining hour, then I need to schedule additional time and pull my car out when the 8 hours is up. I won’t feel guilty about hogging the bay and I can’t feel entitled to finishing all my jobs–that’s on my skills and ability. If nobody is scheduled for the 30 minutes after my 8 hours, I can keep going until someone shows up OR until someone’s scheduled time, but I have no rights to the space outside the block I reserved.

  2. If I block out 2 days to change an engine, nobody should expect the bay to be open, no matter how much shorter their job is, during those 2 days. Likewise, if I can’t find 48 contiguous hours because others have smaller jobs here-and-there, then it’s on me to schedule blocks of time and honor those limits by removing my car, cleaning up and coming back in another block of time.

To close, first-come, first-serve (FCFS) is great and friendly and useful in a lot of cases, but as an automotive enthusiast, I could easily abuse that privilege with no malice intended, purely on the basis of my love for my hobby. That’s not fair to everyone else, so I’m requesting a fair way for everyone to set (and honor) expectations and manage their own time in a fair way. Scheduling the time can be FCFS, but once that appointment is made, it would be on me as a user to check the calendar before assuming I can spend 2 days working on my ancient oil-burner.

Your comments and suggestions are welcome and appreciated. Thanks,

Carl

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The discussion here on a similar subject may provide some insight: Crowd-solve: a reliable online queue signup for machines

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Down fall is a quick 10 minute job can take all day. That same quick 10 minute job could leave the vehicle unable to safely move.

In an ideal world I’d win a very large lottery then buy a large space for Makerspace.

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First off: Please be advised the auto bays are only to be used on cars that YOU PERSONALLY own. Specifically NOT cars that your friends and family own, and very explicitly not work for hire/pay/pizza&beer (immediate family obviously is ok). Unless you have dozens of cars, there are really only so many things that you could feasibly do to take up a large amount of time on the lift.

IMO - Campers are generally expected, not derided at the Makerspace.

For your examples:

  1. Yep, them’s the breaks if someone wants on the lift. They shouldn’t just wait 2 hours, but rather simply ASK how long you think you’ll be. Solves that problem. Unless you arrive at noon and someone just pulled onto the lift, then… them’s the breaks and you’re the one asking.

  2. You’re a bit off the reservation here. In general, you’re not allowed to leave a car on the lift when you’re not present and working on it. Going to get parts or food has generally been OK, but tying up the lift when you’re not here is a no-no. If you need a lift for longer than you can be here, then you should probably invest in your own lift.

All that said, I’m not sure how one could even concevably tie up that much time with your own vehicles.

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Not OP, but it’s easy. Maybe I’ve just had crap cars all my life. I know I’m definitely a crappy, slow mechanic, so that’s probably part of it.

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Thanks for being a considerate member, IMO without an employee there managing and enforcing a schedule I don’t think a scheduling system would be practical to implement.

With the rule that the vehicle must be attended and not left in a bay I am aiming to keep utilization relatively low so most times someone can just show up and do something. (would be interesting side project to use some computer vision to analyze the camera stream to see what % of the time both bays are occupied).

You are welcome to do work that would take all day, but keep in mind that you must be prepared to roll your car down the ramp before you leave if you are unable to complete your work. I had to push the 240sx up and down the ramp often over a couple months when we rebuilt the engine on it. It takes 3 normal people to push a typical car up the ramp safely.

One idea is you could post on the forum that you intend to do a large amount of work during a weekend to let others know there will be less availability, but that post would not be a reservation (someone else could show up right before you and start some work)

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I am not in favor of your proposal for several reasons.

First off - using the lift is a privilege - it is not your “right”

If you want to spend 48 hours non stop at the space working on ANYTHING - especially a car that you may be driving on the same roads as other Makers’ - I don’t see that as a rational nor responsible i.e. unsafe (nor excellent) endeavour.

For something like a motor change, transmission removal, etc - try being courteous and use the lift late at night or early in the morning if possible.

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I wasn’t expecting such a harsh reply, but I did invite all comments, so that’s on me.

Yeah, I own a lot of cars. That’s the problem: all my space is used as storage and there’s no room for a lift in my rental. I’m not a business. I have a 9-5 in I.T. and I own 9 cars, only 1 of which is under warranty. Given that, it’s reasonable to expect 8 of them will need me to work on them at some point and 3 of those I wouldn’t trust anyone else to work on.

Have you ever changed an engine in a car? You sound knowledgeable, what with your time assessment of inconceivability–or perhaps your specialty is Public Relations? In either case, I’d love to attend your next course on how I can improve either of those facets of my life–as I said, I don’t do this for a living.

In the past, changing an engine has been a weekend job WITHOUT a lift, which is where I get 2 days estimate from. In some cars, it’s easy: unbolt the front group and raise the car off the subframe, drivetrain in place. In others, like my old Mercedes, the engine MUST come out the top, requiring a bit more finesse. Maybe if you can share your secrets on an amateur changing an engine in less than 48 hours, I can learn and improve my method. At no point did I ever say I would not be here while my car was in the bay. I don’t know which one of the words I said led you to that assumption, but please let me know and I’ll stop doing that.

The other assumption is mine, and you bring up a good point. I would have assumed it is NOT okay to leave to go get parts. Just like the other thread, where people are saying you should have your DXFs done, your graphics edited, your files in order before using the laser/router/cutter/mill, I would expect to have all my parts, fluids, supplies and everything on me before I showed up. In fact, I can’t think of anything needed to change an engine that can’t be predicted, so I would have acted thusly.

But let’s assume I can get this done in 48 contiguous hours, a time you suggest is inconceivable. My intent was to learn the “right way” to be fair to others before I even set foot in the automotive bay, and 48 hours is a generous estimate. After all, if I said it could be done in 8 hours, and I was still in there after 24, that’s a much bigger problem than if I said 48 and left in 8, would you agree?

I’m sorry, but your tone has really put me off, and I apologize if my response is bitter. If your rule is FCFS, it shouldn’t matter to you if it takes me a whole week, as long as I’m not sleeping there and not running out for parts and not making a mess and not violating any of the other rules. It’s not up to you to decide how long it takes me, at my speed, to work on my car unless you’re using the Mitchell Manual to determine inconceivability or Outlook to schedule the bay as a meeting room. Also, I’ve been a gearhead since I was a boy, and I can tell you that there are a LOT of jobs that could take whole days to perform on a car. There’s a real possibility your intent for the lift differs from the possibilities the lift affords, so please consider others may have a better imagination than you when it comes to cars. But, as I said, you may be a “pro-sumer” that has some insight that can dramatically cut my time in the bay doing the exact same job, and for that I’d welcome the education.

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Thanks. I saw that and didn’t want to thread-jack, so I came here to start a new one.

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I never assumed it was a “right.” In fact, we’re having this discussion because I do not think it is a right, I think it is a responsibility, and part of that responsibility is understanding the lay of the land before doing anything.

Help me out here: what part of my request has painted me in such unfavorable light? I’ve not only been accused of being a business, I’ve been told it’s inconceivable to need 2 days to change an engine and that I have no right to do so.

Lifts are great for LOFs and brake jobs and rotating tires–in, out, bing-bang bongo. But there are other things to do on cars.

In the other thread (mentioned above?), people are talking about how frustrated they are that the people in front of them on the laser (etc.) are wasting time on the computer editing their file before doing the thing they came to do. I would venture to say that for MOST people here, MOST of our work fits on our person when we walk through the door. But cars are an exception: they weigh a ton and take up 100 square feet and are difficult to move once you start working on them.

My request is me merely trying to mitigate any fallout from tying up the Automotive Bay with my own projects. I apologize if I have no right to either make this request or suggest ways such a request might help.

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First off - I’m not the chairperson of the Automotive area, @Brandon_Green is the one that you really have to convince. He sets the rules, but be aware that I can’t think of any tools at the space at all that allow you to reserve time.

Apologies if I came off as harsh. Congrats on the fleet. I’d have more than the 4 that I currently own if I had any more space to keep any more. Just trying to get to the point of what has been discussed ad-nauseum for just about every tool larger than a screwdriver at the space. I also have a 9-5, which means that I can’t spend ALL of my time utilizing a single resource at the space either. I think you’ll find that the times you want to use the lift, that it’ll be in use too (happens to me a good bit).

We have had people change engines in cars at the space, but they’ve not been newbies at the process. I’m not a good enough mechanic that I’d even try to do so at the space. I don’t think that 48 hours is inconceivable, but making sure that someone is available to help push your car out, and then back in (technically leaving a car in the parking lot overnight is also a no-no, but that’s a way, way longer thread) and possibly waiting another day, if someone happens to start their 48 hour project just before you want to push your car back in…

As for parts, sometimes you don’t know what exactly to buy until you’ve finished your diagnosis, sometimes you break something else in the process, sometimes you’re forgetful (I’ve done all 3!). It’s my opinion that it’s been an understandably overlooked breaking of the rules.

Correct. If you can go a week without sleep, or leaving for work, or leaving your car unattended inside or in the parking lot outside overnight then you’re good to go per my interpretation of the rules.

The ‘harshness’ that you’re feeling is due to the aforementioned fact that this has been discussed time and time again, and the arguments have generally been boiled down to their essence.

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I had sort of mis-read the OP’s statement that he’d be spending 80% of his time on the lift to mean “80% of his waking hours, or even 80% of his free time”. The only people that I’m aware of that spend 80% of their time on anything are generally doing it as a for-profit enterprise.

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Don’t take is the wrong way. We aren’t trying to put people out or be an ass.

I thought I had a lot of vehicles. I own 3 plus a trailer & drive a company vehicle.

I have also come quite good at pulling engines & transmissions as well as putting them back. My last one took me 4-5 hours to pull then about 4 hours to put the driveline in, by myself. The in between took more of the time, the rebuilds of both.

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I can see why you’d say that. I hope you believe that’s not my case.

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Yeah, totally understandable, and the error in assumption was mine. The other group that might spend 80% of their time working on cars would be the retired folk who buy up an old rust bucket and turn it into a gleaming piece of automotive history.

One last thing to consider is the overarching ‘rule’ at the Makerspace is “Be excelent to each other” and so long as you’re meeting that goal, you’ll be fine.

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And if I may add, be especially vigilant on this point. History shows us people with the best of intentions fall significantly short (in the eyes of the beholder, which is the hard part to keep in mind). This is another reason the responses on here, or even in person, might feel less than supportive, especially when discussing such projects as engine overhaul. Starting small, demonstrating competence, building a rapport, keeping promises; these all will help build support for the larger projects, and occasional missed milestones. :thumbsup:

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I gotta say it: you are a beast. :slight_smile:

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drdstny,

No one means to be a prick about the use of my old lift (well I can think of one but they are not part of the automotive group).

Realistic times to R & R (remove and replace) an engine vary from year make and model to your skill set and tools available. I would ask why it needs an engine - out of curiosity.

On my 1974 Volkswagen Thing moving at a casual pace I can remove the engine in about 15 to 30 minutes (I used to be quicker but old age and not turning wrenches for a living has that effect). Install time probably about the same and no need for the lift - just two decent floor jacks.

My old air cooled 911 - 40 minutes and the entire drivetrain on on the ground.

A 5 cylinder diesel turbo/ non turbo from Mbenz - great cars - last forever and are “relatively” cheap to keep. R & R takes more time and is an entirely different process.

I have more than too many cars as well(8 1/2) - thankfully I have a giant driveway.

Most folks in the DMS (key word is most) are willing to help each other out /answer questions/etc. I’d suggest you get together with some of the automotive folks on a thursday night at the space and ask questions pertaining to your automotive projects.
If you post on Talk - please include the minor details of “year make model engine etc” and goals - I think you’ll see positive help / suggestions and folks willing to meet you at the DMS to help out.

Do you mind if I ask what projects you plan / hope to do? I ask because the Space has mostly basic tools, not so much on the specialty / vehicle specific task tools. I have a fair amount of factory tools for most European cars in my gear at home i.e. generic brake caliper piston tools do not fit 2002 and later Mini Cooper models - I have the factory brake tool - makes life much easier, and am willing to meet at the space to loan/instruct etc.

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Which is exactly what needs an engine: 83 300SD, OM617.951 with 383,000 miles on it, more than half of those put on my yours truly. It’s gone through a turbo, a flex plate, various seals and gaskets, and now it just cant be rebuilt anymore. 7 valves can’t be adjusted, there’s at least one piston ring worn-cum-broken and we think one of the wrist pins is busted (which is hard to believe, considering the ~.951s have oil squirters).

At no point was I suggesting the engine be rebuilt there. That’‘s not fair in any way. We intended to bring an engine plus the car and swap. If you’re familiar with the W126, the hood will help, but the core support will hurt. Taking the 722 out will not really help or hurt, excepting that I won’t need a leveller. The big deal with that engine is labelling all the extra-brittle vacuum lines and debugging the car when it won’'t start (or stop) with a key alone. My other W126 is a grey-market 500SEL with hydropneumatic suspension on all 4 corners. Has a pullknob to adjust ride height like a 6.9.

As for tools, we have the usual Hazet sets for MBZ and BMW and expected to bring them there, along with an ammo can of our Matco metrics and so forth–I’m sure you have a favorite ratchet or two. I have everything but the space.

Moving forward, I don’t expect to work on every car there (in fact, 5 of the 9 will never possibly see the Space), but there’s a pressing need for one car for sure (a daily-driver 330ci that won’'t pass inspection), and an opportunity to change the engine in the Benz.

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That’s a lot of words to say that you have an old air-cooled 911.

:smiley: :smiley: