Reminder about cleaning up your messes (no matter how small)

DMS General
#1

All,

Please remember that, no matter how small, clean up your messes. I just had someone tell me that because metal is dirty already, they don’t need to clean up. Another person said “it’s only a few cuts, I don’t need to clean.”
This is why we can’t have nice things. If lots of people follow that mentality, the space gets in bad shape fast. There’s a vacuum sitting next to the chop saw and grinders in Metal, but I still see people avoid using it.

I see this with air hose not being bundled up, I see this with members leaving carts in the machine shop egress point (which creates a fire safety issue).

So, as many times as this has been said before, clean up.

I have no regrets banning someone from spaces I have authority over. We are watching, and the state of the space impacts attracting new members and overall shop safety.

Regards,
-Tails

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#2

Walter once said, “that the reason no one heeds these kinds of admonitions is because there is no enforcement,” I believe that if the penalties were severe for leaving a mess then people would think twice before not cleaning up. Because of video capture it is easy to gather incontrovertible evidence of someone not cleaning up. Unfortunately, this takes someone’s time to do it. I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment below.

However, if we make an example out of a couple of the egregious offenders, it would send a loud message. Yeah, I know we want a kindler gentler space but who wants to come in to a dirty and cluttered work area where you have to clean up just to start your project?

Comment, thoughts?

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#3

One thing I’ve noticed, is that the people who leave the most messes, complain about messes the most.

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#4

You are absolutely right. I do not know how to accomplish this, but to me, this is that “culture” we hear so much about around here. I hate the big brother method, the begging method, the coercion method, etc. I want people who want to do things right ( I include me in “people”, we all fall short sometimes). How do we get brothers in arms, instead of adversaries in this fight?

#5

Since Jim made a thread about this subject I’ll chime in *pulls out soap box to stand on *

Leaving messes has been an issue in Digital Media since I started as chair.
Digital Media doesn’t have a lot of rules, but the one rule that we do have is posted on the door because it has been regularly ignored.

"No food allowed, drinks must have a closable lid"

When I have pointed out this rule to people I usually get an incredulous look, then they realize I’m not kidding and they slowly but politely acquiesce.

But I still keep finding abandoned solo cups with liquid, empty Ginger Ale cans, snack foods dropped under desks, then carelessly crushed into dust.

ants

Reviewing security camera footage for this kind of thing is just a waste of time, and I don’t want to be the hard-ass who bans people from Digital Media for ignoring those rules, but I also don’t know how to let people know the rules apply to EVERYONE.

Even if you think you’re DMS royalty or something, the rules still apply.

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#6

They must not be rules that need to be followed then.

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#7

I’m not sure I get your drift?

Let me rephrase that…

“I want to ban those people, but fear that it may be seen as too severe of a reaction.”

#8

I hate to say it, but from what I’ve seen the only way to make this happen is the old “Name and Shame”

When people see it happen enough times they get the idea.

Sure you’re going to have some folks feelings get hurt but I think in the long run it’s better than just shrugging it off.

#9

Hm.
I’ll disagree that this is a desirable course of action.
Not that harshness won’t work, but now you have adversaries.
How can we get the onlookers (who are seeing the bannings and thinking ‘I’d better fly right or leave’) to, instead of looking on, participate in "Hey buddy! Your mom doesn’t work here! I do NOT want ants! Quit being a toddler, and be an adult! etc. etc. etc. and, especially, feel good about it?

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#10

I mean that if there a literally no consequences, then there are no real “rules”.

If you don’t have some reasonable punishment then you don’t really have rules you have suggestions. I agree that a permanent ban might be a bit harsh, but a temporary one should be severe enough to make the point that the posted rules are in fact rules that must be followed.

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#11

Delegate a second who is willing to be a hard-ass.

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#12

I don’t mind being a hardass in Digital Media, but haven’t seen offenders. Everyone’s had a lid on their drink. I’ll put in my time security footage watching if I need to, just need access.

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#13

Yeah, I would never permaban someone for such a minor infraction. I think the max ban without BoD approval is a month.

Either way, someone advised that I gently remind people of the rules for a first offense and if it continues then come the bans. I’m ok with this approach since the leadership in DM has been lacking for some time and people might not be aware of the rules (hence the vinyl sign I placed on the door)

But most of the time I only find the trash people leave behind, so catching someone in the act is tough.

It’s not so much that I’m not willing to do the dirty work (thanks for volunteering JJ!)
Just that I don’t want to over-react. Seems like banning is the only available punishment.

How long is appropriate? A week? The full month?

#14

I would think a week would be decent for first offenders.

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#15

Bans aren’t the only “punishment”. Options could include coming in to clean the room, organize equipment, teaching a basics course, filming a PSA. Bans just keep people out (if they abide) as a community we need to work on getting them to, hopefully take more pride in Space, or at least not want to deal with consequences again.

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#16

You hit on a really good point, which is that punishment in any form can create ill will.
I think part of this problem has to do with Dunbar’s number, and part of it is that people aren’t willing to enforce rules on their friends.

I’ve seen people break rules in pretty heinous ways and get a slap on the wrist of less. (I’m talking about safety rules, those are no flippin’ joke)

Then I heard people argue AGAINST punishment because “So and so is a real mensch, let’s give them a break” again, both of the instances I have in mind were regarding safety rules, and the people arguing against punishment were really well known members who have way more clout than I do.

So when I catch someone who seems to have more pull than myself breaking a rule, the implication is that we don’t punish members for fear of chasing them off.

So you can see why I’ve been hesitant to enforce a rule about soda cans.

I like all of those options better, but I don’t know how they might be enforced.
Judging by the guy who ran 3 lasers at a time I would assume that the people who disregard basic rules have little interest in community service.

Forgive me if I’m coming off as jaded. I’ve only been chair a couple of months and I can see why the turnover rate has been so high in Digital Media.

#17

At first blush that would seem effective. However, many members only make it to DMS about once a week. For such folks a one week anything is insignificant.

As a forum moderator what I have found to be most effective for minor rule violations is first “putting a quiet word in the person’s ear” followed by very aggressive escalation. The first part is simple: remind the person what they did (you brought food into Digital Media), list the rules that were violated (food in Digital Media is against the rules), then asking politely for them to stop (please don’t bring food into Digital Media).

However, if the person repeats the behaviour then punishment is applied (banning, cleaning, whatever).

The third transgression would involve the board.

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#18

I agree. I think that’s where the it would be pretty serious for most folks to be not allowed in an area even if it doesn’t hurt them too much.

Thus a week. It let’s them know you are serious, and that in the future the natural escalation is a month then board.

What I would be afraid of is the pretty big leap between a word and a month.

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#19

Fixed that for you.

You’re forgiven.
:slight_smile:

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#20

I try to leave things cleaner than I found them, actually… and not just at DMS… - seems to play a part in continually getting invited back to places and it leaves behind evidence of good character…

And I’ve also found showing up for maintenance days - whether or not you’re a part of said area ( like laser for example ) - can get you a feel for an area and “ideas”…

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