OMG, Sen. Paul grilling Fauci on GOF funding in Wuhan Virology Inst

Sen. Rand Paul is really pressing Dr. Fauci over the origins and funding for the Pandemic, in the US Senate. Paul is a Doctor, and he is directly accusing Fauci of funding the mutation of SARS-CoV2 to crossover to human tissue, and Dr. Fauci is relying on plausible deniability to rewrite history. Dr. Shi Zhengli of WVI claimed the same deniability after the original outbreak, after having spent $7.4M of American funding to perform these banned procedures.

This is the crux of this disaster! The question is whether Sen. Paul can pin this on these 2 researchers, to hopefully prevent any “research” like this from ever occuring again. This reads like a classic Mad Science novel, “in an effort to get out in front of an evolving zoonotic virus, Researchers create a super bug, which of course escapes from the laboratory and kills millions of people”.

1 Like

It would be nice if grilling by a senator, or even getting someone to admit misfeasance or malfeasance, made a difference anymore. Unless and until actual, even-handed, non-double standard enforcement becomes the norm again (unlikely!), people will get away with whatever they are allowed to get away with by those in charge of whatever enforcement agencies that may be relevant.

1 Like

Justice via political theatre never works.

1 Like

Everyone knows you should trust a politician who used to be an Ophthalmologist to know the ins and outs of infectious disease research over an actual infectious disease researcher.

18 Likes

(mod speak) Moving to off-topic since this is a politics discussion and not actually science related. As long as it stays civil it’s open for now.

(personal speak) IMO this is basically hogwash; Sen. Paul’s speciality was Ophthalmology, not virology nor immunology; as such making supporting arguments about Paul being a doctor is irrelevant** Furthermore, Paul is known for making outlandish statements without evidence (such as alleging funding for gain of function research when such funding hasn’t existed from NIH to the lab in question). This is, by all verifiable accounts, just political trolling by someone who has been exceptionally vocal in their opinion mask mandates are an affront to liberty, or that the chinese engineered the virus, and claiming as such we should be ignoring the actual subject matter experts.

Paul is making the classic conspiracy theory fallacy of “you can’t prove it didn’t happen so it must have happened.” The same fallacy can be used to argue that aliens gave the pilgrims stuffing at the first thanksgiving because we can’t prove that there weren’t any aliens present at the first thanksgiving.

its-ancient-history


** (if one insists on bringing up credentials) then one should note that on top of being trained in Ophthalmology, Paul is no longer board certified and additionally tried to certify Ophthalmology specialists with his own board staffed almost entirely by family members that was never accredited by ABMS nor accepted by about any hospital nor insurance. On the other hand, Fauci is an actual immunologist having worked in that specific field for over 50 years.

23 Likes

I’d like Paul to put up some actual evidence of the election fraud he believes happened. Evidence that a court of law hasn’t already kicked to the curb while laughing.

5 Likes

The Politician/former Doctor vs the Doctor/cum Politician.

What’s important to know is that US Senators have amazing access to US intel. They regularly task CIA, DIA, and FBI with fact finding sourrees into all parts of the globe. Senators know more than they reveal. Likewise, Dr. Fauci knows more than he is revealing.

Fauci has famously changed course on major points: 1)In Jan 2020, Fauci told us SARS-CoV2 was no threat to the USA, in Mar 2020, Fauci told us we could lose 4M Americans.
2)Fauci 1st told us that masks don’t work; next Fauci told us to wear 1 and later 2 masks.

See my next piece featuring Nicholas Wade’s report. Wade has done his usual due diligence.

With all due respect, this is the BIGGEST Science story so far this century. The pandemic has swept our planet, and drawn in all attention, every government has directly focussed to respond to this Scientific issue.

As to the ad hominem attack on Dr. Paul, this is usually ignored or de-rated in a real debate. The fact is that Dr Paul was an Opthamalic Surgeon, who regularly performed some of the most delicate and precise microsurgeries in Medicine. General Practicioners referred their patients to Dr. Paul because his skills were way over their heads. As to the superior disease epidemiology skills of the vaunted Dr. Fauci; this is the guy who told us in Jan 2020 that Coronavirus would not threaten the USA, then in Mar 2020 warned that we could lose 4M Americans. You shouldn’t bet the creduelity of your argument on Dr. Fauci’s reputation.

As for the hot story, it was 1st broken by Newsweek in Mar 2020. The takeaway is that DIA notified the White House that there was intel which indicated this virus was genetically altered at WVI in Wuhan. Several sources have supported this story, and just saying it is a conspiracy theory does not refute anything adequately.

Sen. Paul has referenced an investigative story by Nicholas Wade (former Science Writer for decades at NYTimes). Here is the story: https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/

Wade is very good at asking the right questions, from his piece:

Contrary to the letter writers’ assertion, the idea that the virus might have escaped from a lab invoked accident, not conspiracy. It surely needed to be explored, not rejected out of hand. A defining mark of good scientists is that they go to great pains to distinguish between what they know and what they don’t know. By this criterion, the signatories of the Lancet letter were behaving as poor scientists: They were assuring the public of facts they could not know for sure were true.

It later turned out that the Lancet letter had been organized and drafted by Peter Daszak, president of the EcoHealth Alliance of New York. Daszak’s organization funded coronavirus research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. If the SARS2 virus had indeed escaped from research he funded, Daszak would be potentially culpable. This acute conflict of interest was not declared to the Lancet’s readers. To the contrary, the letter concluded, “We declare no competing interests.”

1 Like

[quote=“Russell_Crow, post:8, topic:80793”]
General Practicioners referred their patients to Dr. Paul because his skills were way over their heads. [/quote]

Isn’t that why all general practitioners refer patients to surgeons and specialists?

Fauci was saying what he was told to say by his bosses. Fauci wasn’t in charge then and he isn’t in charge now. 600,000 Americans are dead and zero percent of them are dead because of Fauci.

7 Likes

Nature interview with Dazsak he responds to accusations of funding coronavirus research related to COVID-19. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02473-4

The relevant EcoHealth emails for the Lancet Letter from the site listed above they start on page 251 here https://usrtk.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Biohazard_FOIA_Maryland_Emails_11.6.20.pdf

1 Like

I am happy to learn that you concur with the concensus that Sen. Paul is in fact a skilled surgeon, in contrast to the earlier posit that he is not really a Doctor.

As to Dr. Fauci not being “in charge”; he is clearly the frontman for the NIH’s response to the pandemic. NIH has 27 divisions; as the long serving head of the National Institute of Allergies & Infectious Diseases, pandemics are squarely in his wheelhouse.

I remember Dr. Fauci offering some sage advice in March 2020, which he failed to follow himself, “a virus is always 1 step ahead of where you think it is”.

More to the point in question, was Sen. Paul’s grilling of Dr. Fauci justified? Fauci is on the record supporting Gain-of-Function procedures on evolving zoonotic viruses in 2012. Dr. Shi Zhengli’s team harvested the horseshoe bats, and she published the discovery of SARS-CoV2 in 2014 from WVI. By 2015, Dr. Zhengli’s team was funded to work on this novel Coronavirus at WVI, and Sen. Paul and Newsweek say the funding came from us. I want to see Rand Paul show the documents which authorized this funding, there has to be a paper trail.

The statements Dr. Dazsak makes do not conflict with what Dr. Paul accuses; they both agree that SARS-CoV2 originated in Chinese bats. Where they differ is in the details, and Dr. Dazsak does not refute Paul’s claim that Dr. Zhengli and Dr. Baric carried out Gain-of-Function procedures on this bat virus. In 2012, Dr. Fauci is on record in support of GOF procedures on zoonotic viruses.

Please note that Dr. Baric is a signatory to Dr. Dazsak’s letter on page 254 of this PDF.

A scientist who changed their hypothesis in the face of new evidence shouldn’t surprise anyone who understands the scientific method. What you attempt to paint in a conspiratorial light is actually the sign of a good scientist.

Being a good surgeon does not make one a good scientist or researcher. I worked with both at the VA - good surgeons, and good scientists. There was a guy I would trust with my or my family’s life if someone needed a triple or fourple heart bypass. Dude couldn’t write an abstract to save his life. Basic spelling and sentence structure eluded his grasp. But his name was (one of the names) on the papers cuz he did the cutting.

Remember, at one time science said the earth was the center of the universe. Then science said the earth was the center of the solar system. Now we understand the sun is at the center of the solar system. I guess those guys were involved in some kind of grand conspiracy when they changed their story.

9 Likes

Changing ones opinion based on new evidence; it’s called science. Something you claim to know about but seem to completely ignore in these discussions.
However your statement about his stance in January 2020 is based on the radio interview where he was notable taken out of context, as the statement was heavily qualified that the situation could change and too much was unknown.

This is a lot more limited than you think, and what they choose to actually read is even more limited. It’s already well known that many of these senators already would prefer the conspiratorial line of thinking than the actual evidence from our agencies. Just look at the election. The Trump administration made a particular spectacle on choosing to distrust and try to politicise the intelligence community and many senators are a part of that.

And as such it deserves to be told by experts in virology, immunology, economics, and sociologists (at least the ones that study behaviour of people in crisis); it’s not a story that should be written by partisan politicians or eye doctors (unless some particular vision effects come out of all this, then they can write about that)

You’re the one that brought up the background, and continue to try to stand him up on it. That’s made it fair game in this discussion.
When the challenger has no evidence to back claims and no notable experience in a field, defer to those with the experience.
Regarding your attack on Fauci, based again on the radio interviews taken without context, you’re attacking someone without evidence who actually has the experience and background because they actually follow the scientific method unlike politicians. When the evidence pointed to masks working and social distancing working in practice, they spoke to it.

Referred patients for Opthalmic procedures sure, but this is virology and immunology. Opthalmic work has zero to do with the discussion at hand, and lends zero legitimate credence to the statements being made by Paul with regard to the pandemic.

And several sources claim that her fuel can’t melt steel beams and thus 9/11 was an inside job. That doesn’t mean those sources are legitimate (and completely belays the fact that you don’t have to reach the melting point of steel to make it fail due to heat)
The claims about the DIA analysis are just as unsupported as everything else. Right now all these conspiracy theories are an echo chamber of self-referencing opinion articles

This writer has already been called out by numerous researchers for blatantly misrepresenting their research, hasn’t been an NYT writer since 2012. His writeup further makes extraordinary claims, without evidence, as the basis for the discussion and non-chalantly talks about them to form the discussion the way he desires, such as the assertion that EcoHealth is itself doing gain of function research at WIV.
As for the organizer and drafter? He’s been studying natural coronaviruses since the original SARS1 outbreak. The NIH funding for EcoHealth has, by all visible measures past and present, been to collect and analyze natural samples from bats to track viral evolution and outbreaks within the local communities of those bats.
As for conflicts? That would be defined as monetary or personal incentives for the overall group of scientists that signed it, not just the person who organized it. An unarmed person can be shot in the street, and a petition for reform may be started by a family member but others can sign the cause on its own merits.
If they were being paid or provided an incentive by Daszak ,that would be a Conflict. The fact that EcoHealth asks scientists familiar with the matter if they endorse the statement is a different story.

No one said he isn’t; what’s been stated is that his medical background is not in virology nor immunology, so claiming he has any credentials related to the matter at hand are irrelevant since he is not skilled in this matter.
However his medical record does stand: no longer board certified in his specialty, attempted to certify himself and others with a bogus board, and the malpractice verdict.

And as Fauci said in January 2020 DHS could deny entry to those affected from China, or other measures to prevent spread before it becomes a risk for Americans. It’s almost like he’s constantly quoted out of context.

Except SARS-CoV2 is not the subject of her prior research. The study you’re referring to is a collaboration with researchers in North Carolina related to MERS and other coronaviruses. SARS-CoV2 was not a product of that research. It was not a virus that, by any accounts, had been sequenced by the time of the pandemic.

Stated without any evidence that funding for gain of function comes from us. Conspiracy theories are still conspiracy theories unless supporting evidence is put forward. Wild tabloid news and politicians not versed in the subject echoing each other in a chamber is not evidence.

We likely already would have seen it if there was one. The fact of the matter is this is still just conspiracy talk.

Again, that’s not what the prior GoF research was in 2015 which involves using a MERS virus. The conflation Paul makes is that a previous controversial experiment is related to the current outbreak when that’s simply not the case. Furthermore, that virus was created in a North Carolina facility and Fauci has already stated that the only GoF research that’s been supported has been domestic.

Bingo

11 Likes

I mean, they were… lol. There was definitely a very grand Geocentric conspiracy.

1 Like

The way to determine whether a virus, particularly a rapidly evolving one, was engineered is relatively straightforward. When it is pulled from nature (to be manipulated in a lab), its genome is frozen in time while the wild virus continues to mutate. Its evolutionary clock is stopped.

When that sample is manipulated and then (if) subsequently released, it will lack the many mutations that have accumulated in the wild virus since the time of its collection.

A virus that has been manipulated in a lab will contain many differences in its genome when compared to the wild virus. Differences that are impossible to predict (and thus correct for) because they happen in nature.

To the best of my uncertain knowledge (I’ve only heard it from a few sources, but haven’t heard the contrary from any scientists (or ophthalmologists, for that matter)), the genome of SARS-CoV-2 resembles other natural bat coronaviruses to such a close degree that it is extremely unlikely that it spent any time outside the natural mutation chain. That is to say, its evolutionary clock doesn’t appear to have been stopped because it contains the same mutations found in other wild virus.

4 Likes

There’ve been several excellent post refuting some of what Russell said and I’m not going to rehash them. By the way I’m having trouble trying to get a paragraph break in apparently my vision causes a paragraph to break in the wrong place so sorry far not being able to do it it’s either let me first say this about well he’s a doctor so he knows. Doctors do not get that many courses in virology Community College. They really do not get any intention training in those no doctor does in fact of anyone in the medical profession I would probably lean more on what a veterinarian would say because they probably get more training because they deal with viruses a lot more. My dad was a pharmacist so I grew up around the medical profession. And I heard what my dad and other pharmacist no surgeons were not Gods but lot of them tend to think they were. Their technicians. I’ll put it this one you wouldn’t ask your diesel tractor mechanic to work on an Indy race car but you certainly wouldn’t ask that race car mechanic to work on your diesel tractor they have a different set this is so true in the medical profession I wouldn’t want my caller cardiologist I might ask my cardiologist to recommend an orthopedic surgeon that they knew was good or that was good with people with heart problems. Doctors are specialists Harriet and when I get out of their special day and when they step out of their specialty so I can make major errors. It’s one of the reasons I

I was active in showing training and breeding dogs when the parvo epidemic hit the dog world. What I have learned since in Reading More on it is that the canine parvo virus originated as a egg nutrition feline parvo. What is interesting is that now there is a version of canine parvo that has mutated viruses mutate that’s what they did

Most people do not realize how common coronavirus Azar we’ve heard about him with covid-19 and more since ours but there are coronavirus has that affect dogs cattle and other animals as well as their widespread and they are Infamous for mutating and back in the mid-1970s All American Service Dogs picked up a mutated Coronavirus and Germany and brought it back to the US yes I remember that epidemic too. I have been following a lot of research on coronavirus for several years. I happen to have a lot of friends who are involved in scientific research of all types. So the rapid was not overly surprising to me because I have been working on a coronavirus vaccine for years and in fact I don’t think it’s well known but there were already vaccines developed for both Stars One and murderers that will never need it.

I I have been active in the Bucking bad signs and scientifically related conspiracy theories for over 10 years and it is quite common for people who are experts are very smart people in some areas to fall down the conspiracy traps. It’s not that unusual. That’s why you look today experts and to the consensus of opinion in an area and not to watch one person sorry for the several replies but it seemed to be the easiest way thank you for your

2 Likes