Thank you.
I would like to reach a point of clarity because I just don’t know how things are being run specifically in woodshop.
Woodshop 1-4 @ $5 a piece open to members
Traditional woodcarving @ $20 a class open to non member/members
The complete woodshop safety plus breadboard @ $35 open to members
Are the woodshop classes getting the honorarium for the committee PLUS the extra fee for consumables used during the class? Not that the extra fees are substantial.
Or are they not getting the honorarium and the fee is going directly the instructor and no honorarium is attached?
So in the breadboard class @6 people per class it would be a $210 (if everyone showed up, minus supplies purchased by the instructor) “payment” towards the instructor
I’m gonna keep this as nonpolitical as possible…
Generally done for honorarium, the $5 is really a “show up” fee. The committee gets the fee.
I’m not sure now. Traditionally done for honorarium but donated back to the committee. Might have changed, I’d have to look up if this fee is donated.
A class where the teacher collects the fee, but best I can tell, except for a very limited amount recently, the hardwood materials were paid for by the committee.
Wise words, for sure. The chart of accounts has to detailed enough to be useful, but not so detailed that it is unmanageable. I was controller for the Dallas Cowboys for 7 years back in the 1980s (when they sucked), and Suzanne Mitchell’s chart of accounts for the Cheerleaders included line items for “pom-poms” and “dance tapes”. (Absolutely true story.) It was ridiculous, and keeping statements clean and true to that level of detail is a real pain in the neck.
However, it is not unusual at all for an accountant/auditor to create an analysis with classifications outside of the chart of accounts to provide a better explanation when a big swing one line item occurs. And I think the Woodshop “consumables” line item could probably benefit from that kind of analysis.
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We use QB Online in my business, and we have a fairly fleshed out Chart of Accounts (CoA) which our Accountant helped us organize.
Quickbooks allows the designation of subcategories. sub-sub-categories (and IIRC, sub-sub-sub-categories, though my company does not use those) for CoA items. When looking at the P&L and other canned reports, the sub- and sub-sub-categories are shown, but one can roll them up with a single click.
Expenses can also be assigned to a parent category even when sub-categories exist within that category, which is useful when during data entry you know something is an X, but are not clear whether it is an X.Y or an X.Z subcategory.
It also allows one to create finer sub categories over time and move entries deeper into the taxonomy as needs arise. I would argue that once there is enough expense in one CoA row that transparency is lost rather than gained, it might be time to go more granular.
Personally, that point is reached somewhere north of 1% of total spend or 20 transactions in a year, unless it is a standard recurring transaction like a phone bill, trash collection, or electrical.
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So we had this happen in Creative Arts - pretty early on to my chair-ness. A teacher (no longer a member) was having me buy several hundreds of dollars worth of supplies for classes - teaching the class - taking the fee - and the honorarium and creative arts was actually loosing money in the arrangement. He made a nice clip and we were digging ourselves in a hole and it was up to me (the chair) to catch it and it took me a good long while to realize it. How much? over $1K Yup.
I was embarrassed because I didn’t catch it until I did obsessive spreadsheets tracing purchases and classes PS just so everyone knows - it was a different year from what I’m uploading everyone on this list is clear. I’m FAR from a CPA I was just trying to watch what I could and understand money as it was presented in the quick flow out and in during my chariness. @Photomancer helped me straighten it out directly with the instructor. the former member in question was asked to (and did) teach enough to remit the supplies that “we (creative arts)” were out of pocket and he turned over all the fees collected from the classes to help this process go faster. I believe it took this individual three months of classes to make things right.
In this instance - where the instructor is keeping the fee from people in the class, if true, I would suggest @Team_Woodshop strongly take a look at the balance of supplies purchased for this class and have the instructor buy the supplies out of the amount garnered from the fees. I would suggest all @Committee_Chairs to do the same if they have classes where the fees go directly to an instructor.
The question to ask is at what point do you have DMS cover someones for-profit class? Because that’s what it is. And I have no problem with for-profit classes - but I believe they should be evaluated to ensure “we” aren’t a hidden profit center.
While it would be a dramatic shift in the culture, it might be interesting to look at a “rental of the classroom model” if it’s going to be a for-an-individual-profit model class. It might also be interesting to have the teacher pay to get the class “advertised” by dms via the schedule.
Want a room? $50 an hour.
Want a room and us to put it on the calendar with name $75. What you make after that is your business.
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Ideally, never, but in certain instances (like this one) that has not been the case.
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I spoke at length with Mike about this before I posted my first for profit class. When he said that I could use the wood that was for classes, I did. When he said I should start paying for it, I did. I have photos and videos of every time I dropped money in the box because I figured that this would come up. I did what I was told, and I covered my ass in the process. I payed for every board-inch of material that left DMS in the hands of my students since I was asked to and I have not taken a single breadboard I have made as an instructor home with me, but by all means, keep attempting to move your false narrative forward at my expense. I expect as much being the squeaky wheel. Sorry, not sorry.
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I would really like to thank @uglyknees for coming up with an alternative solution. While the example classroom rental prices seem high to me, I’m glad to see this thread turning into more of a discussion/negotiation where we can focus on a solution without blaming.
Yes, mistakes were made in the past that we want to avoid. @uglyknees definitely did her part to stop her own committee from losing money. I think guidelines and training for how to notice financial red flags in the numbers would be beneficial for committee chairs, and be the second line of defense after the education auditors (if they still exist).
It’s important to achieve a balance. When the honorariums were limited, Eventbrite classes were celebrated almost as a net gain for the space because no cash was leaving the treasury to pay teachers.
Then, the view of a number of people changed to say that there is wear and tear on the equipment, and that teachers using the Eventbrite or cash model weren’t being fair to the space. Anecdotal evidence suggests that many of the teachers using this model have, in fact, already quietly and without fanfare donated or are planning to donate some of their earnings back to the committees, even though there was no requirement to do so.
Keep in mind, in this model, the money for the class is still in the treasury ($50 not paid out in honorarium and $50 not given to the committee). It seems (again, anecdotally) that there is a trend for the BoD to approve or disapprove committee funding anyway.
The reason I’m framing this as a discussion/negotiation is because, as @jast mentioned on another thread, we are all members who love DMS, but haven’t agreed on how to solve the classes dilemma (yet).
I applaud everyone who can come up with or at least listen to new ideas as a starting point that can be molded for how to solve OUR issue while remaining (or again becoming) excellent to each other.
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For me, there’s a huge flaw in this with the current level of honorarium. I mean, we’ve already got folks being peeved that classes are costing $20/person. I personally am keeping my 5th and onward classes at a lower level, but I do like getting paid. In a rental situation, I’d have to charge roughly $10 per person just to break even with the rental. Many of the classes I teach are restricted to number of students by the equipment available. If I were trying to make money, that’d probably crank the price per student up to at least $30, because I’d have to balance possible no-show/late cancellation people. Plus, I put a lower value on my time than some. Others could go higher. I’m not sure of the exact repercussions, though. Fewer classes offered? Fewer members because they don’t want to pay for all the classes? More classes fewer students?
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I’m actually using you as example of your for-profit class as motivation to reframe what’s really happening and what could potentially happen in abundance if we don’t take a critical look at what seems to be changing. And yes, this directly involves you so it’s going to get uncomfortable and that doesn’t mean you need to be on attack mode with me, because you won’t get very far. While it might feel like a personal attack, take one step back and try to look at the larger picture and talk from the angle of an independent contractor - this will give the discussion a direction and a voice. Keep your eye on the star.
Here’s what I see:
Independent contractors are using rooms for free and getting free advertisement for said venture via the online calendar.
At what point do we:
- Curb it
- Use it to our advantage as our own profit making and actually champion the change
Earlier in this thread I detailed how three other non-profits deal with classes in various ways. Scrap and The MCL both deal with classes as independent contractors. Both scrap and mcl both have issues keeping teachers teaching, students in seats and an educational track going.
Depends on a few things right? Depends on lots of things. It’s a huge change of philosophy from the dms I joined…back in my day!
This all depends on the direction we want to continue moving forward as an organization and that’s a very large conversation to have that should involve everyone. It’s already happening but no conversation is happing about the direction independent contracting is tiling together on its own because it sees opportunity and opportunity allows for all sorts of things to happen - positive and negative.
@dryad2b is spot on in her assessment of what would happen if my model went live. But would it work? Should it work? At what point is it so much we can’t handle it? At what point does nobody care about self educating For the sake of dms and the members and they go after the dolla dolla bills? Is paying for individual classes something that will hurt the organization or turn it in a new direction? I have my opinions on this but the larger voice matters here including yours as a rep from the independent contractors side of things.
How do we shift back to a more organic way of self educating, where the Star isn’t a $50 check but a shared community of eager learners? can that happen on its own or does it need both deterrents and/or incentives?
Thank you for calling me squeaky clean - I had to have lots of uncomfortable discussion when I was chair and also be strong enough to be lashed in the winds of makerspace blowhards a couple of times. I came in when Makerspace was really different and I miss it. I honestly think I worked hard to improve on Makerspace Because I truly believe in it and I think everyone who contributes to this wildness does. I think we could do ourselves a favor and remember that. That’s why we’re so protective of it. Makerspace at its best is dysfunctional family and at its worse is a codependent relationship…perfectly ripe for a reality show nobody would watch because we just don’t expose enough skin.
And ps on a personal note - start buying your stuff with proper receipts from stores. When you file your taxes it’s a business expense. I’ve just now come out of a very tough rumble with the IRS (a story for another day) and I wouldn’t wish any of that on anyone. Especially if your sourcing materials from a non-profit and turning it around and basically selling it with your service. It seems to be a small but present red flag for your personal self. Protect!
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Talk is our reality show.
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So just for clarification how is the other woodshop class being taught:
5$ fee for profit shop supplied wood
$50 honorarium $5 fee for supplies
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You bring up some interesting points. As I see it, there are two types of classes: qualification classes, and special interest classes. Some classes are provided for members to get qualified on the use of something at DMS, and others are there for those interested members who want to acquire a new skill. DMS should always have enough qualification classes to meet the demand, and the wider DMS community benefits when it attracts teachers of special interest topics, regardless of the financial arrangement.
I don’t know where the whole “honorarium” thing came from, but it is a mystery to me how it ever got started in the first place. The students should always be the ones paying the teacher for the class. The same goes for students paying for their own class materials. And if the teacher acquires materials for a class, he/she should be reimbursed by the students, not DMS. Look at the ridiculous bickering and administrative headaches (1099s, etc) the current arrangement has led to.
In general, I think DMS should let the teachers charge market rates for classes, then take an administrative cut from the proceeds–either a minimum fee (e.g.,$100 room or tool rental) or a percentage (e.g., 20% of tuition fees). The exception might be for qualification classes, where DMS might subsidize the teacher by waiving administrative fees (not going out of pocket for “honorariums”). Another exception might be for a special interest teacher that simply enjoys teaching for free (or next to nothing). Then DMS might provide teaching space for free to the teacher and students.
I realize that what I am proposing is completely foreign to the way things have been done at DMS, but what worked when DMS had 200 members really doesn’t work when we have 2000 (or more). We have to become a more professionally run organization or we may lose it, or watch pieces will splinter off out of sheer frustration.
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Wasn’t around for its origin, but the TL;DR I’ve heard was that it was to encourage education since at the time the org might have taught one class per week, which is troublesome for an educational non-profit.
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I am a little disappointed that Mark wasn’t asked this personally if there were concerns, prior to dragging him out through the mud. While you can argue he should have paid for the lumber from the first class, everything was done above board [no pun intended]. If you felt Mark isn’t approachable, then Mike Jury could have answered it [both are up at DMS all the time and usually available].
I do think the “Pay to Play” model does have a place in DMS - it allows a “fast track” to get training or instruction. With the limited amount of instructors, this model allows faster and greater training opportunities. I also believe that DMS and the committees should provide free [or near free] classes for all required tooling - I really do not want to be nickeled and dimed every time I want to use the Space; and the honorarium does help fund the committee. Woodshop does have that option, while I [usually] can only teach once set of classes a month… And I would really like to see more Woodshop training classes use the honorarium process. The honorarium process is a brilliant model - and what I think allows us to prosper and grow.
But the fact is we have had two people out of the roughly 2000 members teaching training classes over the last several months - ~0.1%. And with my one set of classes, I have only been able to train 5-6 people a month [well below the new member monthly signups].
The only way I see to correct this shortcoming is to either make an “easier & faster” requirement coarse or get more teachers. I believe the new Woodshop 1-4 classes are an improvement from Woodshop 101; allowing for much better hands on training and discussion - allowing beginners to be much more comfortable and less likely to improperly use/abuse the tools. Personally I would prefer more teachers - and believe me if I can teach it anyone can! Two evenings can teach another 5 people and help offset your membership dues [and it will be just fine if you can only teach it once a quarter or so…]. I probably get as much out of teaching as [I hope] the people taking the class.
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teachers tend to fill perceived demand/shortfalls.
It is my considered opinion (and I’m nobody to have an opinion that is worth more than the money laying here on the table) that a coordinated effort to recruit, train, and schedule teachers and classes would go a long, long way. Instead, we pretty much “free for all” it, and, despite what some of us think, most of us are “nice people” who do not want to step on toes, or, less nicely considered, “horn in someone else’s territory”. The other side of that, of course, is getting butts in seats, because nothing is more discouraging to those who DO put up classes, than having them fill on the register, and fail on the meet (noshowcity, baby!).
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I can speak to this and moderators feel free to break it out if needed.
I built the honorarium program it was designed to solve some challenges of the time:
1st it was designed to create an incentive for committees to create classes.
2nd it was designed to create classes because the schedule was scarce and it did not feel like as an organization we were meeting our obligations as a non-profit.
3rd it was designed to market DMS by bringing in people with new skill set’s and new members looking to learn.
4th it was designed to change the funding of committees to focus on more activity and growth.
5th it was designed as an offer to members who could not afford financial contributions but who could offer there time to share with the community thus the idea of just teach 1 class a month and it will cover your membership.
Overall I think the program has been very successful though I regret not putting in better documentation on what a approved class is and auditing teacher who try to fraud the system.
Ultimately I still believe the calendar should be integrated to Facebook, Meetup, Eventbrite to expand marketing and a rating system should be used for teachers and if they fall below a threshold they should be restricted from honorarium. (I hope the current leadership can build these system in as I believe they would be invaluable to the program)
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Apologies for hitting the wrong reply button. My comment was made in reference to:
And
And I was referring to myself as the squeaky wheel. I’ve felt compelled to speak out about several issues I do not approve of recently.
I appreciate your way of looking at things in their entirety and the level of thought that goes in to your comments.
Like I said I had a long talk with the committee chair about this situation before I ever switched to events and not classes. I don’t think either of us were expecting my class to be as popular as it is. I have done my best to do exactly what I’m asked to do when scheduling classes/events. When there was a large backlog of people needing access to the woodshop and unlimited honorarium and teachers were asked to teach more, I taught more. When I was told that I was teaching too much, I cut back. When I was told that events without honorarium were better for DMS, I started scheduling events. When I was told it was ok to use the training lumber, I did. I even asked about reimbursing for it and was told that if the board wanted reimbursement they would let us know. When Mike told me Brad said I should start paying for it, I immediately started. I save every offcut, and all the breadboards that I have made are sitting on top of the annex storage. I do my best to help DMS members gain access and safety training to one of the most dangerous committees at the space in a reasonable amount of time. I helped 23 members gain access last week alone. You can absolutely use me as an example, I have tried my best to be one.
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Thanks for your reply, Robert. I’ve never heard the whole story behind the honorariums. I do remember reason #5 being mentioned during my initial orientation, now that you mention it. And while I can see the merits of your plan, I still think that the students should be footing the bill.
From reading various threads on Talk, the honorarium program has either been abused or used way more than anticipated causing some degree of rancor within DMS. I have no idea how prevalent the abuse or overuse was, but having the students pay their own way would eliminate the problem.
This is just my personal opinion.
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