New Motorsports Classes - Give me your input

Hey Fellow makers, and especially those interested in motorsports subjects. I’m Rob, I know a few of you, though I’m a bit introverted and should probably know by now. I’ve been a member since last summer, I’ve learned some great things from some great people here, and I’ve been looking for ways to give back and share knowledge with others. Luckily this last weekend I had the pleasure of speaking with @JayJohnson600, who took a few hours of time out of working on his own project to share with me his enthusiasm for the Motorsports Committee as well as the 24 Hours of Lemons racing team. He has a great passion and great ideas for the future of the committee, and for finding ways to increase member involvement and make the committee more beneficial to the Makerspace as a whole. After speaking with Jay, I plan to become more involved with the motorsports committee and develop motorsports classes. Classes that will benefit not only those members that have an interest in actually getting behind the wheel on a racetrack, but others who may simply want to learn about the strategy, science, and physics involved in motorsports.

A bit about me, I’ve spent the last 20 years in professional motorsports, mainly sportscar road racing and endurance racing. From being the high school kid sweeping the floor of the shop, to putting cars on the podium at places like Daytona, Watkins Glen, or Road America – it’s been a fun ride and I’ve learned a lot along the way that I’d love to share with you guys. I’ve swept the floor, worked as a fabricator, technician, engine builder, crew chief, driver, and driver coach. I’ve raced about anything with wheels, from karts and vintage British smallbore cars to sportbikes or Ferrari 458’s. And, I’ve raced Lemons and Chumpcar, and have my own very low budget but successful WRL team with a few friends. One thing you’ll find is that the physics works the same on any car, and the strategy, tuning, and decision making is all the same process with simply different data inputs depending on what you’re racing. So ideas you learn from Lemons racing or from classes we create will really transfer to about any motorsport you can imagine.

I’ll propose a few classes and ideas that I think would be most beneficial to the membership, but what really matters is what YOU want to learn. What kind of motorsport classes would make you say “hey, I want to get involved in that”, or what topics have you wanted to know more about?

I’d like to start with a two or three class series on racecar chassis and suspension design, development, and tuning – from the basics of vehicle dynamics and kinematics, through chassis tuning and how to decide what changes to make and their effects, on to the actual practice of performing a setup or setup change and alignment. For the guys who do already race or autocross, learning how to make the most of what you have through tweaks, tuning, and setup changes will give you the best bang for the buck and easiest improvements. I’m developing a curriculum for this class series, and would like to get it on the class in the coming weeks. So if that class series would interest you, let me know what days or times are best for you to help me decide when to schedule it (I’m thinking next weekend, the 27th or 28th, or a weeknight close to that). If you have other ideas to discuss, or have input, I will be attending the Motorsports Committee meeting tomorrow night and look forward to meeting more members.

3 Likes

Hell yeah.
Not Tuesday or Thursday, but any other weekday evening. Or weekend is fine. I hope I can participate. :+1:

2 Likes

Rob, if you are at Hallett for WRL this weekend come say hi to our local team Blue Rocket 960. We will be at Cota in December also. For both, 1 seat for rent available.

We have done some car work at DMS- tranny swap, floor drop, etc.

3 Likes

Wow! Someone else knows about Hallett
Some long while back I did corner crew/flags for SCCA, COMMA, etc. events.
Looks like they have made major improvements for both racers and spectators.
Miss it…

2 Likes

Would be maybe building a racing simulator be helpful for some of the class’s ?

3 Likes

Wish I could, I’m in the middle of building a new car and it’s not ready. Got really busy with work the last few months and fell behind, so it might not be ready for COTA either. I do look forward to meeting you though, come get involved in some motorsports classes.

Art, come on back to Hallett. It’s still a great, fun track…time for you to make your return with some DMS guys.

I like where your head is at. I think it would be beneficial, especially with driving classes and pre-race training. I’m not nearly involved enough yet to know if that would be possible, and I assume space would be an issue. But all it would really take in it’s simplest form would be adding some pedals and a steering wheel to that table where the r/c plane simulator is set up, if a deal could be made with the aerospace committee.

2 Likes

Well it could be set up for both , Auto and RC flight simulators?

2 Likes

A lot of history at that track. Got to watch Peter Gregg drive the factory Porsche race against Dave Hobbs in factory BMW. Hobbs demonstrated how to simultaneously lift a rear tire while bottoming out the front air dam and belching turbo fire at the corner I worked. Start of the turbo era. Good times. The following year the 2 teams came back and something called a “Green Wood Corvette” showed up. Damn good racing. Miss IMSA. Got picts from those races (film only back then) - gonna have to dig through my archives.

Interesting fact: Founder, owner, designer of the track drove a Morgan. Also supposedly participated in the Canon Ball Sea to Shining Sea Memorial Trophy Dash.

4 Likes

This is sort of a funky idea, and some might not think it meets the requirements for a class
But what about a basic into to Motorsports. the different types, shat an average
person can get involved in other than a a spectator

Even thing that would make if more fun to watch

Try to build some interest with folks that are not well acquainted with it
My dad was not a car guy so I got little instruction in this area (he made things) and he liked basedball more,

2 Likes

I’m definitely interested!

Great idea!
There are many disciplines in motor sports.
What used to be just some guys having fun on an empty lot can evolve to become a mainstream sport.
Drifting used to be off the radar but the FIA has recently gotten into it some 20+ years after it gained popularity in Japan. The US based Formula D started some time around the early 2000s.
To rally guys, drifting isn’t new however. It is part of the rally repertoire.

There’s a very good racing simulators the guys I know who are into e-sport use. R-Factor I believe is what it’s called.
A racing rig like those used in PlayStation Gran Turismo would be great or a rig that shows how critical driving position is to car control can be fabbed up with some loose parts.
What’s gaining popularity now in e-sports is the use of linear actuators to simulate motion of vehicles. It’s not limited to cars, too.
Here’s a photo of a rig that was in the North American Intl Auto Show a few years back
image

This is an example of what’s becoming popular recently for the “rest of us”.
image

1 Like

See “Scandinavian Flick”.

and one with a real car and driver

and one more, just to show it REALLY happens in rally, you don’t have to be Scandinavian, nor a dude

1 Like

Easy to do with almost any car.
I can do a class for it if anyone is interested.
Just need venue and interested drivers.
Love the links, brings back memories.

Sharing a few old photos.

My old rallye car.
city

In action,at a different event; all “bent up”.
City2

Grid
Grid

M3 rallye car driven by a Belgian team. Engine was supposedly pushing 300HP N.A.
m3

Seat from same Belgian team.
Seat

Ex-works Celica
celica

Father&son team that finished 2 & 3 after the M3.
Civic

Here, me at a different venue, in a different car; correcting after a 4 wheel drift left hander.Eg

Mitsubishi Evo3, in the background.
Evo3

Ex-works GC8 WRX(suspected to be Colin Mcrae’s but never verified), different venue. Captured in mid drift.
WRX

Save for the Belgian Seat & M3. The cars were all street legal, which explains the tags.

Thanks.

*Photos taken by me, save for those with me driving.

1 Like

:rofl:
Very true, doesn’t have to be on dirt either.

1 Like

Because you know more about this than I do, does drifting really happen intentionally on asphalt by winning cars/drivers?
As far as I know, it generally does not, short of competitive drifting (which comparing to rallying is like comparing ballet to track&field), because the faster way around is firmly planted.
See the difference in technique between Michele Mouton’s record setting run up Pike’s Peak in 1985


when the course had substantial dirt
vs.
Sebastien Loeb’s record setting run in 2013 when the course was asphalt

Though decades apart, the cars aren’t that different: all wheel drive, all-out turbo’d up the gazoo ralley cars with French drivers (because that matters, apparently :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: ).
But you see she’s drifting through the dirt. He’s stuck the whole way.

Maybe I have the wrong impression, though…
But if no one else has proven dirt is not required, everyone knows Ken Block…

1 Like

Roads, we don’t need roads.

2 Likes

They speak the same basic language as the folks “back home” on the mud bogs. (we didn’t really have “hills”…)

OFFROADING SIG!!!

I hate discourse

1 Like

The short answer is yes, it does but in a very subtle manner.
Grip driving is usually the fastest way around most tracks but on some tracks with some type of cars, 4 wheel drifting(which is subtle, unlike all out drifting) can be faster. It also happens primarily on high speed corners.
Here’s a video of what it sometimes looks may like, while not immediately apparent, at least one of these cars is 4 wheel drifting thru the corner.


I don’t recall if was on this particular layout or the newer layout on the same track, the pack leader would always be drifting thru one very specific corner. He was also champion for many years until the track closed.
There’s a better video somewhere that shows him in that corner taken with the car coming straight on towards the camera. I can’t find it just now.
My own view is that the 4 wheel drift is part of the repertoire a fast driver has and aids drivers in producing fast lap times on track layouts that allow for it.

Here’s a video comparison of drift vs grip in rally.

I wouldn’t call it definitive, as unlike circuit or road racing, rally courses don’t give the drivers the benefit of having to run the same course multiple times to fine tune their driving to the course(apart from recce, which isn’t the same thing as what happens in practice on a road course).

To paraphrase a tongue in cheek statement from my driving mentor who got me hooked some 20+ years ago “sideways is spectacular but slow.” He was also rally champion 10 year running. He drove the silver Civic in the photo above.

P.S. You’ll also see 4 wheel drifts in karting too.

*links don’t seem to be showing up as video boxes. :frowning:

1 Like