Keeping the shop clean

Woodshop
21

Fully Agreed Brandon. The other thing I have learned after doing cleanup experiments at DMS for the past couple years is you must have a Clean Floor and Clean Table policy.

That means nothing should ever be stored on the floor and or tables.

The definition of stored is you are not present.

I am not sure why the last couple days I have been in there people think it’s acceptable to just write there name on something and leave it on a table for days or put things on the wall and leave it for weeks.

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22

Maybe the board needs to institute a space wide policy for clean floors clean tables and storage of items only in designated storage?

23

It’s already been done. It’s an enforcement issue.

https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Rules_and_Policies#Storage

Projects (and materials for them) can only be stored in designated Project Storage Areas.

Projects (and materials for them) stored in the Project Storage Areas must follow the rules and policies created by the Operations and Facilities Committee which may be changed at any time.

24

So since the committee does not have a policy we default to the one you posted link to and clean it up working to locate any owners before putting items on the freebie shelf?

25

The Best Solution to the current problem in Wood Shop is not pretty, or high tech, or sexy… But it is simple:

Everyone has to Clean After themselves. THAT IS IT.

I see what you are getting at @wandrson and those type of situations are understandable HOWEVER, keeping a clean shop revolves around the intent of the individual member(s) in ANY space, and insuring that intent is a persistent endeavor in the mind of the said member is the issue at hand.

The core issue is most members use a tool that had a little bit of dust/chips already present and, subconsciously I would hope, say the previous user did not clean it, why should I… OR I have seen it worst last time…OR That is the way it has always been. We need to change this mentality.

If you place a sign on a station informing all of work in progress(with Name, Date, Time) it takes care of several potential issues.

Having said all that: The cost effective thing that could be done is what I stated above. Email Pictures to an assigned Arbiter(Chair of the space, perhaps?) to decide if the complaint merits pursuit, then Arbiter can carry on from there: documenting contact with the offending party, Warnings, to actual Field Day Cleaning as punishment to the offending member in order to regain use of the space.

If someone can come up with an easier system, I would love to hear it.

…X…

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26

Ben,

The Best Solution to the current problem in Wood Shop is not pretty, or high tech, or sexy… But it is simple: Everyone has to Clean After themselves. THAT IS IT.

I agree.

I also offer some other suggestions to help “ease” people into the mentality of cleaning up after themselves and I already know I will get some heat to which I say:

“Bring it.”

There are certain chores around my own home that I used to have an issue with such as taking out weeds, vacuuming, trimming the grass, shrubs, etc. and I can trace most of this to the fact that I really dislike jacking with moving extension cords, particularly outdoors as they get hung on trees, unplug themselves, never have enough reach and are just a pain in my ass.

After I switched to a cordless vac, blower, weed whacker and hedge trimmer, it is now a delight to do these things, but that may just be me.

So one thing I would love to see is at least a good lithium Black & Decker cordless vac somewhere in the DMS and I will bet it will used a lot. If I am wrong or it doesn’t work worth a damn, then return it.

I have used this model for over 2 years and just now took it again to clean up some dried mud I tracked in.

http://www.amazon.com/DECKER-CHV1410L-Lithium-Cordless-Buster/dp/B006LXOJC0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1433225280&sr=8-1&keywords=hand+vac

The only downside is that the capacity is not high in which case this might be worth looking at:

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-Platinum-BDH2000FL-20-Volt/dp/B008R3ER0Q/ref=sr_1_23?ie=UTF8&qid=1433224537&sr=8-23&keywords=hand+vac

It is allegedly faster to empty as well. (also allegedly available at Walmart for the same price)

Barring that, perhaps sarcasm is in order. Have a T-shirt which reads “Yes, I am your maid, please tip!” or “Will sweep for food.” and follow offenders around. Probably not practical, but fun to think about.

I just wish positive reinforcement were stronger. Usually when I see a professional at work, I try to emulate their habits. Cleanliness can be contagious when a certain critical mass of users are consistent in setting a good example.

But back to consequences with a nod to Mad Max: Return to Thunderdome

“Break the Deal, Face the Wheel”

  1. Eat a sawdust sandwich

  2. Put a voice emulator in the RFID reader that mocks the offender when they swipe to get in: “Gonna clean up after yourself this time, Pig Pen?”

  3. Have to watch a series of shop cleaning and safety videos and clean the whole shop plus pass a written quiz

  4. Super-Noogie / Swirlie with an angle grinder driven buffing wheel

JAG “Master Blaster Runs DMS Town” MAN

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27

When I took Woodshop 101 with Alex, he had to clear woodchips that were jamming the vaccuum exhaust and blocking the motor area on the table saw and the jointer. To my mind that isn’t a cleaning up after yourself issue, but seems to indicate there is something wrong with the vaccuum removal system. Perhaps there isn’t enough power for the size? Or maybe the filters are clogging and need more frequent replacement/cleaning?

It seems we already have policies in place, @Robert_Davidson, to cover cleaning up after ourselves and really don’t need anymore. While I could be wrong, I don’t think the problem is being driven by a lot of ‘liitle’ messes and dust by a lot of members, but rather a relatively few really big messes by a few members. I would suggest identifying those members and having the board pursue a staged sequence of discipline. Once there is a known consequence for leaving a huge mess, like the lathe one I described above, the problem will likely self-reduce. At least for the big messes.

Now in terms of the dust that is a problem. I don’t think it is reasonable to expect a member to get the dust they create cleaned up completely. After all, much of this dust gets airborne and can settle quite far from where they are working. So unless we expect every member to take a duster to the whole wood shop every time, dust will accumulate. I propose that the WoodShop committee organize a regular (say weekly) event for members to come and spruce up the woodshop by cleaning up the dust, etc. I would make this part of the Woodshop 101 class, getting the class to do the actual sprucing up as part of the training. That combined with the indentification of and chastisment of those leaving the big messes should solve this problem, I would think.

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28

Most likely people simply not turning it on, then chips accumulate and block it and they don’t notice, then next person tries to use it with vacuum and the vacuum cant clear a solid mass of wood chips

There are ryobi hand vacs (might as well stick with our all ryobi battery tools all the time trend) that I haven’t purchased simply because I didn’t think they would be used, but I will pick up a couple next time I come to the space.

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29

@Brandon_Green

Not turning it on could certainly cause some of that problem; however, I was also wondering how well the vacuum system works when multiple machines (table saw, band saw, planers, etc…) are all using the vacuum. And how performance varies as the filters clog.

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30

Walter it’s primarily an issue of.the operator normally. While it can fail to remove it, it usually does. I don’t expect it to be completely dust free but we already have a shop vac with large reach, it takes mere minutes to vacuum your station and be done.

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31

@ke5bud

In my experience, which is fairly limited in the space’s wood shop, the vacuum system has not done a good job of removing the sawdust for a number of the machines, in particular the band saws and the sanders. The latter of which can ‘spew’ fine saw dust all over the space.

I also think the ‘mere minutes’ is somewhat misleading. I would say a thorough cleaning of a single station can take anywhere from 5-10 minutes when you consider the time retrieving the vacuum, brooms, etc… particularly if you want all of the dust removed. So while perfectly reasonable to expect such a clean up when your done, I still don’t think it is reasonable to expect such a level of clean-up immediately after every short use when your working on a bigger project and you may make only two or three short cuts with the table saw or band saw or whatever.

You clean up when your done, not after each ‘step’. To my mind the cleaning up of the ‘big messes’ such as larger wood chips, big piles of saw dust and putting away the tools you used are far more important and a bigger problem then dust coating horizontal surfaces.

I also think we should have a procedure for storing glue ups in the wood shop for up to several hours (until clamps can be removed). All too often I have seen the limited bench space taken up by glue ups left overnight and the owners had not arrived back at the space yet. We don’t have enough workshop shelf storage for this (I think), but the limited work bench space isn’t a good place for it either.

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32

Just now getting to post. I will try to address as many things as possible.

Main thing, don’t be an inconsiderate POS (maybe a little harsh, but I have cleaned that shop so many times and it wasn’t my mess). Put stuff back and clean up after yourself.

Right now the shop is in a bit of a flux since we got the Saw Stop. We spent several hours putting it together on Sunday and trying to re arrange the shop to accommodate all the new wood we received. I would like there be no storage in the woodshop, but have no other place for the wood. Storage is a main issue right now at the space, but if there was no storage in the woodshop it would make it easier to sweep.

In the woodshop 101 I stress that cleaning up and putting things back is essential to a community workshop.

I have tried labeling stuff and it helped some. I want more signs, but I’m not good at making them. The one we have for the INCRA Router was made by @macapaka and hope to have more soon.

Anyone who thinks the woodshop will be completely dust free is insane. Are there ways we can improve? Sure! We do have some tools that require dust collection that don’t have it yet. All the ducting is purchased and ready to be installed, it just needs volunteers to do so. We have a rolling vac with a cyclone but people seem to think it empties itself. Same thing goes for the large dust collection system.

The large dust collection works well when all the gates are closed except for the one on the tool you are using. I am guilty of this as well as many others that forget to close the gate after they are done with a tool.

To keep the dust contained please close the doors. @Dawsmart installed the door sweeps on the woodshop doors several weeks ago. This should help keep dust contained.

@Cmorgan and @munawar are working to get a cabinet/ Dust collector for the INCRA router.

Tom Cook (not on talk) is working on creating a cabinet for the Miter Saw similar to this http://5.forums.drupal.assets.tauntonnet.com/sites/forums.finewoodworking.com/files/comment_upload/86650/Miter_Bench.jpg He is planning on cutting it on the CNC and has it pretty much designed already.

Lets have a wood shop meeting. Please choose a date below.

I ask that if you come to this meeting, please come with sleeves rolled up. It’s not just a forum for members to suggest things for others to do. As a community we need to be willing to not only put out creative and usable ideas, but help with the implementation as well.

  • Sunday, June 7th at 4PM
  • Monday, June 8th at 7PM
  • Wednesday, June 10th at 7PM

0 voters

See you there,
Alex

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33

This sounds like a job that the proposed DMS employee can work on. I see we have a “Starving Hacker” DMS membership level which offers a reduced fee in return for “cleaning, organizing, maintaining tools, and teaching classes”. Does anybody have this membership and can we call on them to do some of the cleaning duties?

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34

While that looks great on the surface, and while I am in agreement that this is a great task that someone on a reduced membership could take on, I don’t think it addresses the issue that everyone is responsible for cleaning. I can see a “cleaning is their job” type of thinking that will happen.

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35

First of all, thank you MUCHO for cleaning up. I have swept the entire wood shop a couple times while waiting for the laser cutter so I know it can be really filthy (and there wasn’t even anyone there so there were no excuses).

However, let me show my naivete’. Maybe it would help if we had more brooms, shop brushes and dust pans - like one set for every one or two power tools. Several times I have been in there and it took a very long time to find the tools to clean up after myself. This decreases the motivation to do so … especially if someone isn’t particularly motivated to clean up after themself in the first place.

Just intended as a constructive suggestion …

Chris

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36

Ok guys so I have been following this thread and I have been hearing a lot of “the other guy” is not cleaning up type language. So let us for a moment take a look at the rough numbers:

This is anonymized RFID badge in data for the past year from 5/1/2014 to 5/31/2015 this data is for the whole space but I think we can apply it the specifics of the woodshop.

DMS usage.png1224×235 18.1 KB

This data tells us that the top 20% (245 people) of Makers comprise ~80% of the usage here at the DMS. To put this in perspective there were a total of 1227 unique badge IDs during this period. So before complaining think about the fact that if there is a mess it is more likely that you made it, than it is that anyone else made the mess. So worry about cleaning up after yourself (and what ever small mess my have been left by the 80%ers) and the problem will take care of itself.

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37

I don’t know about you @John_Marlow but I prefer the shop vac. It gets it done quickly and gets everything.

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@frank_lima To derail this thread some, can you post that dataset as a google spreadsheet or somewhere? I would like to make some visualizations of it

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39

I am Shocked that after 38 posts, amongst presumed to be responsible adults, cleaning after one’s self is still being debated… This will not be fixed by an EMPLOYEE being hired. Or Dumping “cleaning” as a task on other members* Your mother does not work at DMS. Everyone must clean who uses the space… period. This should be true in every space, at DMS and elsewhere.

Just look at @frank_lima 's numbers, that is raw statistical data and it shows who is responsible: those who use the space. SHOCKING REVELATION to be sure.

There is no other method, taking into consideration who and what is all involved at DMS. The next available passive method would be RFID every station, and to use it, members would log on using the Tag. But that will become a nightmare, I have seen the unintended consequences that result using the RFIDs in Controlled Industrial Areas…

Therefore, I respectfully refer everyone to the method I listed in my previous post.

The picture above show accumulation, more than one person created that situation overtime. If everyone cleans around the tool, even if the station was dirty before they got there, and after they are done using it, then there is no further problem.

…X…

  • = We do need to figure out a list of duties for said members, since the honor system is not working. Perhaps a log of accomplished tasks said discounted member must submit to a board member that specifically documents what the discounted member volunteered in the last month; to retain that “starvy hacker” status.
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40

The question is how to motivate / educate / encourage / force those who are unfairly leaving a mess for others to clean up to be more excellent.

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