While that looks great on the surface, and while I am in agreement that this is a great task that someone on a reduced membership could take on, I don’t think it addresses the issue that everyone is responsible for cleaning. I can see a “cleaning is their job” type of thinking that will happen.
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First of all, thank you MUCHO for cleaning up. I have swept the entire wood shop a couple times while waiting for the laser cutter so I know it can be really filthy (and there wasn’t even anyone there so there were no excuses).
However, let me show my naivete’. Maybe it would help if we had more brooms, shop brushes and dust pans - like one set for every one or two power tools. Several times I have been in there and it took a very long time to find the tools to clean up after myself. This decreases the motivation to do so … especially if someone isn’t particularly motivated to clean up after themself in the first place.
Just intended as a constructive suggestion …
Chris
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Ok guys so I have been following this thread and I have been hearing a lot of “the other guy” is not cleaning up type language. So let us for a moment take a look at the rough numbers:
This is anonymized RFID badge in data for the past year from 5/1/2014 to 5/31/2015 this data is for the whole space but I think we can apply it the specifics of the woodshop.
This data tells us that the top 20% (245 people) of Makers comprise ~80% of the usage here at the DMS. To put this in perspective there were a total of 1227 unique badge IDs during this period. So before complaining think about the fact that if there is a mess it is more likely that you made it, than it is that anyone else made the mess. So worry about cleaning up after yourself (and what ever small mess my have been left by the 80%ers) and the problem will take care of itself.
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I don’t know about you @John_Marlow but I prefer the shop vac. It gets it done quickly and gets everything.
@frank_lima To derail this thread some, can you post that dataset as a google spreadsheet or somewhere? I would like to make some visualizations of it
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I am Shocked that after 38 posts, amongst presumed to be responsible adults, cleaning after one’s self is still being debated… This will not be fixed by an EMPLOYEE being hired. Or Dumping “cleaning” as a task on other members* Your mother does not work at DMS. Everyone must clean who uses the space… period. This should be true in every space, at DMS and elsewhere.
Just look at @frank_lima 's numbers, that is raw statistical data and it shows who is responsible: those who use the space. SHOCKING REVELATION to be sure.
There is no other method, taking into consideration who and what is all involved at DMS. The next available passive method would be RFID every station, and to use it, members would log on using the Tag. But that will become a nightmare, I have seen the unintended consequences that result using the RFIDs in Controlled Industrial Areas…
Therefore, I respectfully refer everyone to the method I listed in my previous post.
The picture above show accumulation, more than one person created that situation overtime. If everyone cleans around the tool, even if the station was dirty before they got there, and after they are done using it, then there is no further problem.
…X…
- = We do need to figure out a list of duties for said members, since the honor system is not working. Perhaps a log of accomplished tasks said discounted member must submit to a board member that specifically documents what the discounted member volunteered in the last month; to retain that “starvy hacker” status.
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The question is how to motivate / educate / encourage / force those who are unfairly leaving a mess for others to clean up to be more excellent.
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I will never support the immediate theft / removal of another’s property.
I am fully in support of immediately red-tagging and snapping a photo and
moving it to a purgatory area.
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I don’t think anyone was debating people need to clean up after themselves. The debate seems to be about when, to what degree, and the means that have been suggested to ‘enforce’ it.
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With regards to the storage areas, I have noticed that the storage policy doesn’t seem to be enforced at all. There are many projects that have been in the storage areas since I joined in February, and they look like they have been there well before then. Someone went around and put paper signs on a lot of them stating they had until May 1st to remove them or claim them, yet nothing seems to have been done since then.
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245 people represent 80% of the visits to the space. If each of them were to spend just 10 minutes/week “committing a neatness” (e.g. cleaning up their immediate surroundings), this would equate to a full time 40 hours/week (at 100% utility - no coffee breaks) cleaning crew.
When I come in on Thursdays, I usually, at a minimum, haul a can or two of woodshop trash to the dumpster. I am usually pretty good about running the broom around, using the vacuum system when using the tools, returning an abandoned tool to its proper storage, etc.
Doesn’t take long, isn’t a big imposition, and helps make the space a little nicer. I encourage others to do likewise.
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AlexRhodes - In response to your feedback on the gates being left open/closed I’ve seen some manufacturers that offer current sensing switches and gates. IE when a tool is powered on the dust collection system is automatically turned on and the corresponding gate is also opened. Typically these systems also have programmable timers that keep the gate and dust collector on for x number of minutes after the tools are powered down. Some of the systems can get fairly expensive but as makers I’m sure we could also build something better or more than capable of meeting our needs.
We have looked at the ivac system ( http://www.ivacswitch.com/default.action?itemid=35) in the past but as you state gets fairly expensive to outfit every tool. When we looked at it we were about 300 members now that we are about 850 the money doesn’t seem so outrageous anymore. The sad thing is, its one of those things that really shouldnt be needed . For the cost of this system we could by another 3D printer, a lathe or other tools. @Cmorgan was working with another person on a system used a car door lock actuator to open and close the gate. I don’t know the current status though.
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I have created a meeting for Sunday at 4PM per the poll results. I will probably be there around 3PM getting a head start on organizing cleaning up. Feel free to show up and help.
This is a committee meeting. This meeting time was chosen from a poll Keeping the shop clean
At 4PM we will start in the wood shop organizing, finish ducting, and cleaning up. Around 5PM we will meet in the hands on class room. We might meet sooner depending on how many people show up and clean up the shop.
General Agenda for the Meeting, more to be determined
- Direction/Focus of Wood Shop
- Policies and procedures
- Ways to enforce when you see something wrong
- Ways to Improve Wood Shop 101
- Set Reoccurring schedule
- Teachers?
- Add Saw stop procedure
- Signage
- Content
- Placement
- Design
- Large Sign for Entry way
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Apparently the ryobi hand vac is not currently available online, and the 3 stores I checked didn’t have any despite what their online inventory claimed. So no new portable workshop vacuums for now.
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Hello All,
Bringing this one back to the top, I was in the shop with @MathewBusby cleaning the woodshop. I’m not sure why the table saws and the chop saw are immune to individual cleanup.
Those seem like 2 of the filthiest spaces where people cut their piece and walk off with no intent to come back and clean it up.
Also in a close 3rd is the planer and joiner area.
There is a shop vac, floor vac, 3 brooms, a dust pan and hand brushes. There is no reason folks can’t clean up after themselves after they are done with any tool in the woodshop.
The $4,000 saw stop was clogged up with dust, and nobody bothered to check the suction or bothered to clean up the mess. Yet when the sign goes up that its broken then folks get irritated.
It makes no sense to be lazy, and pig pen your way around a shared shop leaving chaos behind you. These folks know who they are and i’m sure its habitual.
If you make the mess, don’t leave it for the next person to clean up, and or the supervisors to clean it up for you to come back and mess is up again.
Yes we are all makers, but take pride in the space that allows you to be a maker.
Clean-up after yourselves please…
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To lend some insight to my experience, which I assume would represent the possible experiences of others and certainly lends credence to the immunity behavior you mention.
I have been in the woodshop while it’s in use by others, cleaning up MY mess while others are spewing shavings on the floor. It seems a little self-defeating when this occurs.
Also, I have also been derided for cleaning up my mess while others are making theirs right next door.
Things like that tend to stick with a person, even when they’re wrong. I have no idea how to change that culture other than to continue to ignore the person being an asshole…
I’m a newbie and I’m a little apprehensive about opening the SawStop table saw and fooling around with it. Maybe a class on basic care of table saws and other shop equipment might be good.
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I would say ignore the asshole, the cnc supervisors group is growing. Which mean more eyes to peep out the lazy folks who keep doing this. Your due diligence is appreciated no doubt, its not expected for you pick up every single piece off the floor. However if you leave a pile of shavings on the floor that makes the space look like crap, you will know the difference, so that needs to be cleaned up. If the guy next door is a pig pen, i’m sure that will be addressed as needed.
So please keep cleaning up after yourself its not everyone its a handful of what i call leeches that just show up use the equipment and go home. Not giving a thought to the spaces safety or look, keeping in mind there are people walking in and out touring the space, and the crap they left behind could cause injury to the next member of the space that wants to use the tool. It’s just a clear i dont care not mine attitude.
I mean I ignored the ignorance of the folks that left the chop saw and saw stop and table saw a hot mess, I didn’t make any of it.
Regardless its a joint effort, some filthy people won’t ever change its a habitual thing. However if anyone see’s a spot that’s just trashed out, please take 10 mins of your time and maintain it.
Otherwise, stuff like that saw stop is gonna break, and then the same people that just walked by it in a shitty state will complain that they can no longer do their projects.
So if EVERYONE chips in then the problem will disappear.
No worries your not expected to open up the saw, but the top, sides, and bottom was trashed with shavings, which is a clear indicator the suction isnt working. You see that black bar, if you put you hand on the end and feel nothing the suction is jacked up or the saw is clogging. Like any other tool, post your concern and one of the supervisors will address it, but dont just keep cutting on it making the problem worse.
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As far as the floor goes, there is a dust mop in the wood shop, which makes it really quick and easy to clean sawdust off the floor. It only takes about 10 minutes to sweep the entire wood shop floor with it, and even less time if you’re only cleaning the area around the tool you used. Simply push it around and around like a zamboni - no need to sweep like a broom. Push all of the dust into a central pile, then vacuum up the pile.
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