I have some ideas on how to fix this.
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All ears for fixing our atrocious accounting setup.
If weâre talking about QuickBooks, let me know if you need any data entry, or read-the-manuel/Idiot-Guide type help.
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It takes very little creativity to say no to everything.
Very frustrating for anyone whoâs default mode is to look for alternative approaches to roadblocks.
Iâm signing out.
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Says the person saying no to the setup we have come up with after a lot of discussion amongst the chairs.
Says the person who hasnât submitted an alternative themselves besides âraise the feesâ
The chairs have had a long series of discussions on this. The Board sat us all down even when it started.
Your solution throws students under the bus, and focuses on the teachers that insist on maintaining DMS as a source of income. We still donât have a solution for driving up true volunteerism.
The one we settled on is a little more overhead for the teachers that care about the cash they get, but doesnât impact the students significantly nor the teachers that are doing it out of the volunteer spirit.
Find a better solution that still keeps us accessible to the members.
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Oh for crying out loud. I posted plenty, made many suggestions, raised lots of alternatives, spent way too much time on talk concerning this exact subject. It was the only way I was allowed to participate since it was a Chairs only party. Do your homework before you launch a judgement like that.
Everything in this thread is raise the fees, pay the teachers through the fees.
The point of that post is the pot calling the kettle black
Iâm shooting down one idea thatâs presented here, based on our current operational capabilities and not screwing over the students.
You keep complaining about the decision the chairs made in here, presenting only one option and claiming that things are not difficult (you have no idea), that somehow classes like the Haas were demonstrations of the one idea presented here working (far from the truth, they were not), and only considering the one use case: the teachers that chose to make this a second source of income as a requirement to teach, ignoring:
- the logistical problems for our finance given our current state of accounting
- the students getting charged for every last class to offset whatâs supposed to be covered by membership fees, often to the point where we lose them as members because they canât afford to take all the trainings (yes, I have gotten this as a complaint and reason for cancellation)
- the teachers who actually do volunteer their time, rather than make it a paid affair
- the fact it doesnât solve the core problems of needing to encourage volunteers, gain more members, nor streamline trainings that have only gotten even more complicated.
- we have committees that have stated reasons for increasing class requirements included increasing honorarium to teachers as a motivating decision
Re-read your posts in this thread, Iâve already re-read them and mine and I stand by my statements.
I asked you to do your homework, not just read this individual thread.
Yes IN THIS THREAD, I stated that if DMS did what they ask teachers to do (charge fees for some of the courses) you could get to the same place.
As for the work the Chairs did to tackle this, donât forget your first work product ⌠the one the BoD flat out rejected.
I have asked to discuss this in person. You are assuming so many things based on how you interpret what I have written. This has become a fine example of the 4 conversations that can take place:
- What I am thinking
- How I write those thoughts
- How thoughtfully you read those words
- What you conclude the words mean.
Things have taken quite a detour between 1 and 4 in this case. It can be clarified in person, or not. Your choice.
Now for your homework where you find all kinds of discussion about how this puzzle could be addressed:
https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/search?q=honorariums%20user%3Abertberaht
The point is being missed that the core problem was the total $$$ amount of honorarium payouts. The top month was $37,500 for one month, that is over third of our income! And it was growing very quickly at a level that would become half our income within months.
The first plan was to limit total outgo of honorariums. This was proposed at the first Beer & Bitch session. Then it was adjusted to the current $25/$25 plan we have now. It helped a immensely as the community made some hard choices. Certainly we had a lot of very vocal members that were unhappy.
At the second Beer & Bitch they developed a allotment of classes from historical data and compromises by each committee. The majority of the committees tightened their belts and determined what would best suit their needs. This plan is yet to be enacted since there were a few committees that wanted to block out 20-30 class where they had taught very few prior classes. And we have new committees that need some classes to grow. All parties are working on what those target numbers should be. We hope to have the plan in place soon.
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Unfortunately Iâm not allowed to do or say anything about it.
Might I remind everyone that this is a post from a non-member asking about the calendar?
Will a moderator please split the honorarium payment discussion and put it in members only?
Bert,
Before I replied here I did actually read your posts on the matter in other threads; I even reread some of them last night. However I suggest you reread this thread and see exactly how you come off here, claiming the easy solution.
You arenât referencing your other threads here, you arenât acknowledging the problems and solutions discussed elsewhere nor anything other than âteachers making less money.â (You do reference the member churn, but as a red herring since you ignore the potential factors from increasing class requirements and costs). You canât treat these threads like research topics where someone looks up every word you have ever spoken. I have actually read your open letters and other posts Bert, but in this thread they are meaningless. I am answering to your writing here, not everything in the universe.
Just as I expect someone to answer as I write here, not as I have previously written. These threads are piecemeal, not research papers with massive lists of citations
The item that was rejected was due to confusion over cash out the door versus honorarium budget total, not the idea overall.
(No idea why that came out like a heading. I donât see format markdown on the mobile interface)
As for discussing in person, that was for the people who received large honorariums; donât try to backtrack the rest of the discussion into it.
We donât ask teachers to charge.
We ask that if they are insisting on not volunteering, and maintaining a larger income, they get that income elsewhere.
We have a value problem if every teacher is charging for every class beyond consumables especially for classes with as little as 3 students.
Look at woodshop: it now takes three classes to use the most common two tools by non-fine woodworker standards (the table saw and the drill press). Thatâs three honorariums paid, two extra classes for every member on top of a safety class. Inability to make classes work, costs of classes, and changing training requirements are all things that have been listed for cancellations in the past and a consideration for solving the churn problem. Even a member of the woodshop committee, in their long list of reasons for the class structure, included the increase in honorariums paid as one of the reasons for that system.
We canât look at this as simply charge more fees; we ignore the core problems and distance more students.
We are a non-profit; not a non-profit gears and increasing the riches of teachers, but on getting the value to our students and makers. Teachers looking for pay are still able to do so on their own, just donât make it our business.
Edit to include:
Agreed, Bert and I have gotten out of hand here. @Team_Moderators
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flagging:
is one way to accomplish this ask.
Another is to tag team moderators:
While I prefer the former because itâs more direct and allows you to tell them WHY youâre alerting them, either of these will get their attention and is much less hit-n-miss than hoping someone on the mod team pages through and notices theyâve been asked to do thisâŚ
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Thanks, I just went back and flagged it.
Iâm all for people saying what they want to say. I would rather keep our heated debates private for members.
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Yet another way is to flag the off-topic posts as off-topic: this alerts the mod team to the fact that the flagger thinks the flagged posts are off-topic, which, if this happens enough, will needle them into deciding to move the off-topic posts of their own volition.
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To frown on someone making money, whether a lot or a little, shouldnât be the point, IMO, unless that person is not providing good classes if we canât afford thatâs another thing altogether. The fact that an instructor may be willing to teach less number of classes at $25 than at $50âŚtheyâre still teaching. I have no problem teaching some classes. To cast aspersions due to the fact that someone was teaching a lot of classes, is a disservice to that instructor, providing their classes were providing a $50 service. This isnât directed to the OP or to Jim, because I understand his point. In the past hashing and churning over honorariums, others implied lots of classes = milking the system.
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I have always maintained that I am pro teacher. To be completely honest, makerspace has been really boring for me and Kevin the past two months without the classes we once had. Whether it is because people dont realize they can put up classes or that people arenât willing to teach for $25, I dont know if we can determine. But it has been b.o.r.i.n.g.
I dont believe the honorarium system is at all throwing money at a problem. If metal shop wanted to be an all volunteer system they could have chosen not to accept any honorarium at all and we could have given those hours to another committee. I know that is not where you were heading but still.
If boosting funds so we can get more quality teachers (not that they arent now) means there will be more awesome classes, then Iâm all for it. More awesome classes means more reason to continue to pay those monthly dues.
There are different types of members. Those who come in already knowing how to do and wanting to just do.
And also those who donât know how but want to learn all they can.
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Unlike the government however, our budget is limited. At the growth honaroum payments were having, we would easily burn through our cash hoard within a short period. Teachers definitely deserve the money, but it wouldnât be sustainable.
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A proper budget with honorarium as a line item, along with a general, not an emergency, budget, will determine how much to spend. I think thatâs the direction finance committee is working in. How much an honorarium should be is a separate matter. That we donât have unlimited funds need not preclude us from offering classes.
As someone that takes classes, I understand DMS is tightening things because the money isnât there.
But for a GOOD class, I really donât mind paying a little extra to the instructor. It takes money and time.
Iâm really not opposed to someone having a class fee or like the eventbrite thing. I know money is tighter for other people though.
I keep meaning to teach classes but I havenât made it over the activation energy bump yet.
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