Honorarium Discussion

[Mrksls2]

I have constantly worked within the system provided by the leadership at the space and have helped more than a thousand members gain tool access in several different committees in the <2 years I have been here. I never “gamed the system”.

As someone that was gatekeeping access to woodshop tools you “found” a way to work within the system via EventBrite instead

You’re welcome.

As soon as woodshop switched to the committee approved 1-4 format, tool breakage dropped immensely.

A strong claim - do you have data to support it?

Only anecdotal. Like the fact that while 1-4 was being regularly offered, maintenance days usually only consisted of rotating the blades on the jointer and planer, and getting the sawdust out of the corners, or the fact that the only instance of every single tool in the woodshop being in operational status during the entirety of my membership was during this time. I’m sure you can pull runtime data from the limited number of Interlocks in the shop.

I also get committee requests and emails ignored by the treasurer and other officers for months at a time.

I see all of 11 mentions of your DMS email that have crossed my inbox ever ; 5 total mentions of your personal email address - and most mentions were forwards or CC’s. You’re certainly not emailing admin@dms very often.

Out of these 16 emails you claim to see, guess how many replies I have from you in my inbox ever? Zero (0), none, not one. I rarely email [email protected]. I make my requests directly to the person or group that is responsible for the issue. I have several requests that have been ignored, and/or met with friction and then ignored. I’m not imagining these things or making them up. I can post them here if you would like.

tool breakage dropped immensely

There seems to be an entire separate thread that disagrees with this statement. Or am I reading the joys of woodshop maintenance wrong?

No, your misinterpreting the facts. Woodshop 1-4 is a more in-depth, set up oriented course that could be part of the solution to the maintenance issues at the space. Unfortunately, it was not one that the space was willing to pay for. My breadboard class is an output oriented safety class that focuses on the minimum safety requirements to use the stationary power tools in the woodshop without getting hurt and putting the skills to use with a very basic practical application. Some students are willing to pay for a fast track, one-and-done course rather than wait and try to piece together classes from the few remaining woodshop instructors who still teach on a limited basis.

I will not teach a 5 hour class for one honorarium. In

So you won’t volunteer unless you are paid? Hate to break it to you but that’s not volunteering.

I never volunteered to teach classes for free. I volunteered to teach classes for the $50 honorarium that was offered. Those are two very different things, but both require volunteering. Plenty of skilled craftsmen and women won’t volunteer their services at all. I volunteer all the time outside of class anytime someone asks me for help. I will help anyone with any problem that I am able, and I have spent many hours doing it. Guess what happens when they ask me to do it for them instead of helping them with it? We talk about payment.

someone in jewelry spending an hour and a half teaching just the hydroflux, ceramics spending an hour and a half only teaching the pottery

These departments have done a good job managing how they teach. They have also done a good job training their members and growing their membership. This is a red herring

I never said any of them did a bad job. I said they have classes that cover less in more time and don’t get the same treatment as I. There is more than enough information to teach 1.5 hour classes on each individual tool in the woodshop. I wonder how long the backlog to get woodshop access would be if we did it that way?

Teaching a class for money at the space is no different than making something and selling it. People do that all the time at the space.

Yes, but we aren’t paying them to make and sell things.

Call it what you want, but every person who has received an honorarium check from DMS is/was a contract employee of DMS (more so even than the bookkeeper and porter-who are each an employee of another corporation that was contracted by DMS.) Calling them an employee is like calling the driver of the dumpster truck or the technician who changes the air filters on the AC units employees. DMS has contract employees that make overhead door, plumbing and electrical stuff work right in the space as well. I don’t see anyone shaming them for not volunteering their time.

[ESmith]

I’m sure you can pull runtime data from the limited number of Interlocks in the shop.

If we were a commercial operation with production schedules to compare that would be a useful exercise. But we’re a hobby shop with sporadic usage patterns and erratic adherence to procedures.

Out of these 16 emails you claim to see, guess how many replies I have from you in my inbox ever ? Zero (0), none, not one. I rarely email [email protected]. I make my requests directly to the person or group that is responsible for the issue. I have several requests that have been ignored, and/or met with friction and then ignored. I’m not imagining these things or making them up. I can post them here if you would like.

Can’t speak to your interactions with others that I was not involved in, but upon further examination I have all of three emails from you in July and November on conversations I was CC’ed on as part of issues that were addressed at the time. Want me to opine on them months later anyway?

[zacharymarkson]

@Mrksls2 and @ESmith can we ask you two to take this conversation into a private message? While important, we are starting to get off topic from the original thread

[dryad2b]

If you’re implyiing someone is teaching the same tool 3 times in a row on the same day, then the auditors are not doing their job of stopping classes they should be stopping.

To my recollection, this type of holistic contextual review is not something that Honorarium Auditors have been instructed to suss out. (I may have missed an informal thread discussing this topic, but this is my recollection.)

And, while I haven’t held 3 classes on the same thing in a row, this month I’m teaching the same thing twice a row… twice. That’s not so much due to the current honorarium restrictions as my personal time limitations. Last night, while the sewing classes were restricted to 5 people (better to teach and practice if the student has a machine to work on, and we’ve only got 5 – now 4 working…), and in both classes there was a late cancellation so I was only teaching 4 folks instead of the possible 5. So far both welding classes aren’t full, but there’s a few days left.

My point, supposing I have one, is that the classes are filling a specific need, as big as possible for the equipment available. Perhaps the original person who brought the scenario was just babbling? (Not Holliday) So, the honorarium auditors should have let these go through.

For me personally, I can’t see running 3 real classes in a day. I don’t love y’all enough to give you that much of my time, even if you are paying me. OTOH, others have given that much in a day, and sweated for it…

[dryad2b]

You can say “Ha!” all you want Beth, but somewhere there’s a viable balance between those who want to give to DMS in the name of its charitable, I believe very important mission, and those who want to take every penny from it they can.

We all have a choice, try to make it better or try to squeeze as much as we can from it. I made my choice and hope and have worked very hard to encourage others to make a similar one.

Primarily, I was saying “HA!” to your stated (at the time of allowing 2 honorariums) theory that more folks like you (nice paycheck, some time to volunteer, no real need for extra money) would step up to fill the vacuum that was being created by blocking those who were willing to work for the rate offered. Doesn’t look like there’s a big pool of folks like ready and willing to step forward. Perhaps I should say instead “Oooooo, honey. Bless yo’ heart.”

I am in no way trying to argue that we didn’t need to take a stronger look at what was going on in the way of classes. In a way it’s a shame it’s hit the committees with the strongest needs (Woodshop and Laser, maybe 3d Fab). I kinda got bumped out of a couple of areas where I’d been teaching by individuals who seemed to be paying bills by hugely expanding the offerings for those areas. But – those were smaller areas so the total didn’t look that large. Those folks quit teaching when they couldn’t pay bills out of what they took home. And now, since I added an area, I’m charging the students in those original areas because I can’t teach in 4 separate areas and only be paid for 3.

In a more personal aside, I’m figuring that even though I think I hit “pay me” on 4 classes, I’ll just get paid for 3, correct? When I put the welding classes on the calendar, I wasn’t sure both sewing classes would “make”, as I’ve found them notorious for not making. But – 4 students actually showed up per session (only one late cancellation per class), so they both made honorarium levels. Both welding classes are currently signed to 5 people, so they’ll probably make, too. But – that’s just the breaks. I figure it’ll get addressed when it goes through the bookkeeper.

[zacharymarkson]

Planer seems "off"

Just don’t winge on about how you NEED that honorarium or you can’t teach because you can’t get materials.

I don’t feel that it is whinging to bring to light an impediment that makes it difficult for me, and others, to teach classes at DMS. Especially when, if viewed in that particular light, reframing the honorarium as way to get materials might encourage more people to teach at DMS, even if they can afford to buy the materials on their own

[jast]

I am simply going to throw my hands in the air and shout at nobody in particular, because we have now come full circle, where you WANT to use YOUR honorarium to fund teaching materials instead of approaching the chair to acquire materials for classes in that committee (which you admitted surprise for being an option, rumor mill having told you that honorariums were for purchasing materials for teaching).
I give up. Again.
I don’t know why I stepped in.

[zacharymarkson]

let me try to clear the air

1. the honorarium, as explained to me when i first joined the space, about 4 years ago, was so that people could afford to buy materials for classes that they taught
2. @Photomancer informed me that committees could, not would, purchase REQUIRED materials for classes. To me, that reads that they would only do so for things like Woodshop Basics, PlasmaCAM Training, etc
3. so now for classes that are not covered under that umbrella, there is still an option to get some of the materials covered. allowing the less financially fortunate to teach classes that are not required for tool use

is there an error in my conclusion?

(also I presume that you step in for the same reason that i step in: to help others out, combat misinformation, and make the Space better as a whole)

[yashsedai]

the honorarium, as explained to me when i first joined the space, about 4 years ago, was so that people could afford to buy materials for classes that they taught

Honorarium was created as a thank you, to people that to teach classes.

@Photomancer informed me that committees could, not would, purchase REQUIRED materials for classes. To me, that reads that they would only do so for things like Woodshop Basics, PlasmaCAM Training, etc

Committess may choose to buy materials up front for classes that they want to have occur in their area. This is not just for tool training classes. Ask CA and electronics and many others.

so now for classes that are not covered under that umbrella, there is still an option to get some of the materials covered. allowing the less financially fortunate to teach classes that are not required for tool use

If you can find a committee to purchase the materials up front for you then this works. They are under no obligation to do so.

Your error in conclusion is about what the purpose of honorarium is and how it relates to materials. They are two separate things and have nothing to do with each other.

[zacharymarkson]

okay, thank you for correcting my incorrect assumptions

[Photomancer]

informed me that committees could, not would, purchase REQUIRED materials

My experience as a former chair and co-chair (when we had them) of several committees is:

• When committees buy materials/tools, they have INVESTED in having the new projects available to members.
• • Committee would invest when: they thought there was sufficient interest to justify investing and likely to get the cost returned within a certain amount of time.
• • Instructor would commit to teaching classes AND directing the committee honorarium to that committee (nothing pisses a committee off more than underwriting the expense and then the instructor directs the honorarium to another committee after they paid of for tools, materials, and provided the space. It has happened.)
• I know in CA we bought full hides. It would take about 4 or 5 classes to recover the cost, but it was done because it was about half the cost per student and leather working was popular.
• Rather than the instructor being paid and buying the materials, the instructor has “negotiated” with the committee: “If I teach 3 classes and all the honorarium goes to the committee, will you buy this tool?” If it pays for 100% or more, never seen the offer turned down.

Committees are very willing to invest if it promotes the interests of that committee’s interest, which in turn allows them to invest in tools and classes.

[shoottx]

Yes Meetings were held, minutes were taken, I will find them and make sure they are available.

And one of the motions the Woodshop included in the November Meeting was as follows;

• a. Spending approvals Average Amounts for information Will updated with more accurate data when available)
  • i. Wood $300/QTR
  • ii. Bandsaw blades and Sharpening 150/Month
  • iii. Maintenance Cost 200/month
  • iv. Shop supplies 150/ month

Motion: Woodshop committee gives standing approval to spend up to $500 in each of these categories, for the next six months. Paul moves, Jimmy seconds Vote Passes 6-0

After reading the minutes we will get clarification that the motion intended to say “up to $500 per month, in each category for the remainder of 2020.”

[brsims]

Spending approvals don’t work that way Mike as much as you guys might want them to. Something that we’ve discussed previously.

The reason they don’t is exactly what we’ve seen here. Committees that ignore their responsibilities to hold a meeting every month.

[shoottx]

We need to have a discussion about this whole topic. With the run rate of over $4000.00 per month for supplies and maintenance of the woodshop, the limits enshrined in the guidelines don’t work. Our effort in passing the resolution was to comply with the purchasing guidelines. So rather than tossing these issues back and forth on Talk. Let me know when you are available for a sit-down discussion.

We are having regular monthly meetings, with minutes and all the proper stuff. We have misplaced the December and January minutes someplace, Mark and I have been hunting for them. They have apparently gone into hiding in the great internet playground. We will find them or re-vote on all the stuff at the March meeting.

[Edenblue]

The board has office hours this weekend.

[talkers]

I LOVE Dallas Makerspace; it has been one of the very few constant forces of good in my life over the past few years.

There is a lot i wish to comment on this thread. But let me start with Zach’s comment. This is why we exist. And Zach, you are not alone in feeling this.

We are a corporation only in name. This entire discussion is an issue of heart and $$. And that is the debate everyone has in life.

Our goal should always be “Make” - “How do we make this possible”, and to grow the community around that. Let us always first be a force of good.

[zacharymarkson]

I do agree wholeheartedly with you. I would also add “how can we be excellent to each other?”

[Mrksls2]

I would just like to point out that the membership dues from the 300 or so members we’ve lost during this term would have paid honorarium for about 160 more classes a month. This number does not reflect churn statistics, only membership growth. According to the statistics above, we have seen around 1200 new members in the past year or so. If sufficient efforts were made to hang on to the existing members, we would have more than double the amount required to pay out honorarium for our busiest month. It ends up costing more money in the long term to train the constantly changing base of new members from scratch, especially when there are so few senior members left to get the new guys up to speed. The leaderships answer to this problem seems backwards. Limiting honorarium payment limits class availability. Limiting class availability limits not only tool access, but also knowledge of advanced techniques, processes, capabilities and limitations of the equipment available at the space. All of these limitations, when combined with all the machines that never seem to be working properly and the constant political friction work really well to push members out the door.

[Lampy]

Limiting honorarium payment limits class availability.

It was limited due to people taking advantage of the ‘honor’ part of honorarium. The system was never designed to pay people $1,200/month. Especially when they were stacking classes 4-6 in a row with the bare minimum attendance each.

Also we just increased it to 4 classes per person per month. You can teach once a week or all four in one day, whatever suits the teacher best.

All of these limitations, when combined with all the machines that never seem to be working properly and the constant political friction work really well to push members out the door.

Good point but the majority of the membership do not care about the political friction / discussion whatever you want to characterize it as. They just want the tools to work.

[brsims]

Limiting honorarium payment limits class availability.

It is also necessary for the survival of the organisation, the fact that you do not understand or refuse to acknowledge this fact (which has been repeated ad nauseum) doesn’t change it. Before some members were willing to manipulate the system to maximize personal gain, we could ignore the holes that could allow the membership to take more from the organization than it could support. Once profiteering members started to explore just how much they could squeeze, controls became necessary.