Honorarium and class fees

[Webdevel]

Great insight. I did charge fees fro my classes because I was providing most of the materials used in my classes while DMS was providing the tools and space. Attendees walked away with their project, so they did get something for their payment. I got my honorarium, and the committee got their $50. That seemed like a win for everyone.

There was confusion around how/when I should charge my fee, so I opted to collect the fee at the time of class. I had one or two no-shows, but limited the class to 6 people for lack of space. All my classes had the minimum amount of people needed even with no-shows. Since I didn’t collect the fee ahead of time, I suppose people could sign up, and then not show because they didn’t pay to begin with. That didn’t seem to be a problem for me though.

[kyrithia]

I do fiber arts classes with fees occasionally. The main thing I do is just try to be clear in the description of what the fee pays for and who it pays. Then folks can make their own choices of if that’s something they want to sign up for.

If it’s my consumables from personal stash, I usually put something like “materials fee of X$ payable to instructor” and if it’s from classroom stash, “materials fee of X$ payable to CA kiosk near door” and I remind folks during class to go feed the tribute box. For fibers, we try to keep fees very minimal at or near cost, if any. Either way, I also basically describe what materials the fee is actually covering.

We’ve also started doing a thing on some of our classes that use very negligible amounts that it feels weird to try to calculate or ask pittance for, but it does use some that adds up to CA materials needing replacement eventually (i.e. needlefelting, sewing, etc)…we’ve started putting a blurb on the description suggesting that while the class is free, showing some love to CA with a donation of a dollar or two to the tribute box to help with materials is much appreciated.

Now I do get that if there’s a class that the instructor is having to special order supplies and using their personal business connections for discounts etc there might need to be a more formal fee tied to the class at signup since it can make a difference on what needs to be ordered, so that’s a different can of worms.

But for ones where it’s personal stash or what I order if unused for class I am ok absorbing and I’m just offering at cost to be reimbursed, and it’s no biggie to me if I have a no-show or two since it was stash…the simplest is just be clear have them pay at class.

Also where practical, I put enough detail that if they have similar materials and want to bring their own and save the fee, I’m fine with it.

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On a different note, I took a wallet class awhile back from @Webdevel (great class) and deeply appreciated that he had the options of basic leather (free or close) but also an optional nicer ($) upgrade (I did). I thought that structure worked well

[LisaSelk]

Fees collected outside the DMS system, go to the individual instructor, who is then responsible for paying taxes on them. (Personally, I oppose this, as DMS pays the cost of the space, tools, maintenance, etc, and the instructor profits personally (enurement) while DMS pays for the equipment, and its maintenance and is not left whole).

Perhaps it’s time to reinstate classroom/facility usage fees. From what I recall, they were removed primarily to simplify our books. Now that we have so much automated (with the calendar and finances), it may be time to consider bringing fees back - in particular for classes/events held that do not otherwise help maintain the space used, etc…

Here are two examples

(I’m sure there are more. I just grabbed a couple to give an idea of some of the ways we have approached class/event fees in the past…):

Rules Change May 19, 2015:

Events Charging Entry Fees

• For any use of the space where an entry or material fee is charged, the Dallas Makerspace shall be paid 15% of gross sales.

https://dallasmakerspace.org/w/index.php?title=Rules_and_Policies&diff=prev&oldid=15536

Rules Change February 20, 2014

Events Charging Entry Fees

• For any use of the space where an entry fee is charged, a minimum 25% of the sale price for each fee goes to the Dallas Makerspace.
• If no fee is charged to members, use of the space is free. A non-member entry fee may still be charged.
• If an entry fee is charged, it is requested that a lower rate be available for Dallas Makerspace members. If a lower fee is charged, a minimum 15% of the sale price for each reduced rate fee goes to the Dallas Makerspace.
• Tools/materials can be sold for the event and will not count as an entry fee as long as members are given the option to bring their own suitable tools/materials.an be sold for the event and will not count as an entry fee as long as members are given the option to bring their own suitable tools/materials.

https://dallasmakerspace.org/w/index.php?title=Rules_and_Policies&diff=prev&oldid=10592

[PearceDunlap]

We only killed them because people were so fucking confused by doing simple math. And it made accounting more work for the people cutting checks

[John_Marlow]

Stuff happens in life. The system should have mercy on instructors who cannot make a class. Likewise for students.

Agree. Stuff happens. That’s not really what I’m talking about.

I have had the same individual sign up for my class and no-show more than once - with no contact either before or after. That’s the kind of repeat performance I’m seeking to discourage.

[Bill]

I suppose we could implement a way for instructors to enter a negative strike against registrants who repeatedly do not show or allow each instructor to have a list of people who cannot register for his or her classes. It will not be easy, but we can consider that.

Edit: if non-members are doing that intentionally, there is nothing we can do about throw-away e-mail addresses.

[Diplomat]

The charge for “renting” a classroom or machinery is fair.

I agree with Pierce on why it was discontinued. The paperwork was too convoluted.

At one point, I was discussing teaching computer classes on MS core products on my computers. The idea that was discussed was to donate 10% back to the space as a cost. I thought that was fair.

25% is too much of a cost unless DMS does lots of support or it is something unique like the HAAS mill.

AND having more classes is good for our 501©3 status. As well as our members.

I would like to see more outside instructors. More diverse classes too.

The people who are repeat “no show” offenders might need to be reminded what they are doing is not excellent. We might need to get to a “no show” cancellation fee or the $5 skin in the game fee.

As an instructor, I would be unhappy with 3 students signed up honorarium and same student burns me on 2x classes. I have really lost $100 because 2 classes did not meet the minimum.

Finally, can we have a “request for class” list? Name, class, phone, email and date requested. From an instructor’s or chair’s view, I would see what is “missing” off the calendar or what is “in demand”. If this was instituted, I would like to see the 10 day calendar notification be lowered to 5 days IF there was a 3 student minimum on the request list.

Food for thought.

[Julie-Harris]

I like all of these suggestions, especially the request for class list.

[John_Marlow]

Finally, can we have a “request for class” list? Name, class, phone, email and date requested. From an instructor’s or chair’s view, I would see what is “missing” off the calendar or what is “in demand”.

As an instructor it is nice to see that there is interest in potential classes. But the problem with this kind of a list is that people put their names on these kinds of lists, thinking it means something like, "yep - I might be kinda sorta possibly interested in that kind of a class if it happens to fall into my schedule when it’s offered and I happen to have a project that needs it and I don’t happen to be doing anything else interesting. But no commitment that I might actually sign up and take that class … "

While I don’t have a good solution, one thing that works for me is when I’m thinking of offering a class, I post it to the “interest check” section, along with the potential date(s) and fee(s). If enough people respond that they would be interested at that time, then I go ahead and schedule it.

This is a bigger challenge if it also involves developing new curriculum.

[Bill]

As an instructor, I would be unhappy with 3 students signed up honorarium and same student burns me on 2x classes. I have really lost $100 because 2 classes did not meet the minimum.

Unless you had set the class size limit to three, you did not really get burnt…

[kyrithia]

Like @John_Marlow I kind of do an interest check in about three places (here, fb, verbal) if I’m thinking of a new class. Lists are good in theory but there are too many variables for it to be actually useful.

In general, I don’t schedule a class unless it seems like I’ve had interest from about 6-8 people in a small window of time (schedules vary and interest wanes). I figure that covers about half that said they’re interested won’t/can’t when it comes to it, plus some I didn’t know of will sign up when it hits calendar, sorta keeping that level…then one can figure out of a class of maybe 8, one or two are no-shows. Aggravating, especially if I needed to limit class size and maybe it kept someone else from signing up and took a spot. But it happens.

I honestly think no-shows is partly a culture/training thing. It’s up to us as instructors to help get the word out that the EXCELLENT thing to do is cancel your registration if you can’t make it. I think some folks it honestly never occurs to them. So I get it.

What I’m starting to do is put a thing in my descriptions near the top is to remind folks that if something comes up, please be sure to come in and cancel so it frees the spot in a limited size class.

It’s just a matter of training. It’s taken awhile to get folks used to registering for classes that didn’t need it before. Plus some folks are new and just don’t know. This is similar. It’s up to us to nicely spread the word if someone didn’t know.

[edit to add]
That being said, if I have someone interested in something I can help them with but there’s not enough folks at the same time to put together an actual class, I usually work out a one-on-one thing. I think a lot of folks around DMS do similar, so if you’re new and don’t see a class scheduled:

1. ask around and if interest, someone might schedule something
2. ask around, and if it’s just you needing help or instruction, there’s a wealth of folks in the community that are happy to lend a hand for the asking

[jast]

And I’m not sure if everyone is open to discussing this candidly.

I guess I’ll portray what I think is the flip-side of your experience. I struggled for 2 or so years to find something I thought I could teach. All the good ideas I had when I walked in the door washed out, but I put my time in, struggling to find a niche. That struggle continues, but I feel rewarded that I think I’m helping fill a void with what I teach now.
I charge a fee mostly because that is what we agreed upon when I agreed to help teach this curriculum. I do not think this cheapens the experience at all. I think everyone understands why we charge a petty sum, and is generally OK with it. Nobody REALLY cares about the money. We mostly trust that it’s going to a good cause (the committee fund to keep the equipment running) and call it a day.
Another thing I’d like to address here that I believe you did not is the honorarium. We seem to have a badge of honor that NOT accepting it is better, and it should all go to the committee. I have no issue with doing that. But for some of us, it makes the whole thing more palatable to “earn our keep” (especially makes it easier when discussing your habits with your SO). I accept the honorarium on my behalf, as without it, I struggle much more to justify coming to DMS. I haven’t been doing it long, so we’ll see, but it is my intention to put much of that $$ back into DMS in some way (straight up cash donations, maybe buy things I think we need and donate those–we’ll have to see. I don’t have a good plan just yet),

My point, and where I think I differ with yours, is that I don’t think “greed” is what is driving my charging for a class, or “pocketing” the instructor honorarium. I don’t think about increasing the fee on a class outside of it allowing us to provide some sort of benefit (which, monetary value-wise, should exceed the increase) to the student. I certainly do not crave any way for ME to “make more money”. I’ve never calculated anything in my head as to how much I could earn from a class. The only reason I worry about honorariums at all is: it’s a promise I believe should be kept, whether that’s to an individual or the committee. I do not find any “motivation to charge even more”; just the opposite, generally, that the need to charge AT ALL is lamented. I’m not seeing the greed rearing its head that you experienced.
I’m not sure if this is “discussing this candidly”, but I tried.
As always, your mileage may vary.

[Photomancer]

Tonight around 7:30 I saw a new member that I’d signed-up earlier in the day. She was wandering around with a sort of lost look and I asked her what she was looking for. She replied “The Lecture Hall”, we were standing right in front of it and there was the class schedule on the wall. A class titled Organic Backyard Vegetable Gardening for Beginners was supposed to start at at 7PM but room was empty.

Another person that came out of Interactive and said the class had been cancelled. There were 4 people signed up - no idea why cancelled, could be a very good reason. But 2 of the 4 were non-members and 2 were members, one being the person that just joined. But I’d guess they were some disappointed folks.

@Bill

[TBJK]

Organic Backyard Vegetable Gardening for Beginners

I really need to watch the calendar more. I would have taken that class.

[Photomancer]

It’s okay … you were busy.

[Bill]

A class titled Organic Backyard Vegetable Gardening for Beginners was supposed to start at at 7PM but room was empty.

It is unfortunate when that happens.

My thoughts:

1. I hope the instructor is OK. Hopefully not sick, involved in an auto accident or dealing with some other kind of emergency.
2. There is little we (DMS) can do to lessen the impact when an instructor does not show. Schedules taped on the wall are difficult to update. Tablets will be going up to fulfill that need, but this class was never cancelled on the calendar. I do not know whether he had tried to call in to say he was not coming.
3. I am curious about the procedure to handle refunds if the class had a fee. Instructor cancels the class to trigger refunds?
4. I urge mercy unless there is a pattern of no-shows.

[Photomancer]

I intended to take no action beyond letting you know. Just felt bad that a new member hung around then nada.

[kyrithia]

Re cancelled class

Ya know, that’s something I think would be beneficial to have a clearer process on…if a class has to be cancelled, what is the “best practice”?

I had to cancel a class earlier this spring due to illness. I could see the writing on the wall the day before, so I did everything I could think of, but it was kind of a big guess on my part. (I cancelled it in the calendar system so it’d send texts to those that set it up when registering–great feature–and I posted here on talk and told someone that I knew would likely in the room that night in case I had a drop in). But then I wondered who if anyone associated with DMS admin(?) had any clue/care about my reason. No idea who to tell.

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And also from DMS perspective, what communication from instructor to…who (classroom etc)??

And let’s say over the course of time one instructor might have several legit cancelled classes, but another just cancels when attendance is low or maybe just not feelin it, whatever. There’s no way for Classroom (or honorarium approval, or whoever it is) to tell the difference when approving honorariums and seeing an eventual pattern of cancellations because there’s no communication.

I dunno. Maybe this is a non-issue and only poked at when there’s an egregious situation that needs deeper digging…but it seems like something simple like maybe a blank to enter reason for cancellation that gets stored somewhere when cancelling a class might save some head scratching and investigative time occasionally if it ever matters

/ponder

[Cairenn_Day]

Last summer when I got sick and had to cancel a class
I got someone to post a sign on it with my email,
I offered to teach the class to anyone that contacted me, when 'we coudl get together

[MrsMoose]

Same. I was honest about it before I even joined that the agreement with SO was I could be a member as long as I was providing a zero endgame by doing at least one class a month. Anyone teaching at the space for monetary gain is barking up the wrong tree. If that’s your goal there are way more profitable venues