Hmmm... This + servo based flippers =?

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That is an interesting idea, intentionally weak flippers, but only when you want them. I know this is done now by slapping the flipper buttons, but a half press to soft catch the ball might be cool.

I wonder how much power they can handle? 24vAC?

I’m guessing that you don’t want to route a lot of power through such things and instead use a logic level signal. From there you can control an amplifier or some other device that handles power.

We have been taking about this and building a system around this for 6 months.

I feel like a maker-fail.

We have? do you have any pictures of the build?

Imagine having analog flippers on a pinball machine, that would be crazy.

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:smile: I’m pretty sure almost all of the old pinball machines already have analog flippers, just not variable resistance analog flippers.

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“Feel” is a hotly-debated topic in pinball/arcade communities regarding the various generations of Williams/Bally/Gottlieb flippers. Getting it right is very important. My concern with any servo-based flipper mechanism is how it will play. Will experienced players be able to translate their skills without much trouble? What new aspects of play do servo flippers offer vs. existing solenoid and switch designs?

Generally pinball is a twitch and react game. Zero to full speed in fractions of a second. Not much use for anything in between. Advanced techniques like the “slap tap” would need to be preserved somehow. Also, would it be durable for a million duty cycles or more?

I guess the only way to know for sure is to test it. I think servos might work, but not sure how analog buttons would fit into the mix. Flippers are an all-or-nothing action.

Well the hangup for @childofthehorn and me has been around exactly what servo to buy. By the time you get to the servos that produce the appropriate amount of torque and angular velocity, you’re looking at at least $75 each, which is a hair cheaper than the Bally Fliptronics 2 system from the early '90s (involving a complex circuit board to control a solenoid with regular logic levels). And, there are plenty of servos at that price, each with slightly variant characteristics, so I don’t really feel like spending $75 on something that’ll end up either not sending the ball to the back quickly or at a sane angle (too slow) or else launching it into orbit (too much torque).

We’ve collected some empirical data through experimentation, but it still leaves way too big a ballpark (aircraft carrier, perhaps?) in what are the actual values that should be plugged into the equations. Once we can answer some of the physics problems that are hanging us up, then we can select a servo and tweak it with a particular voltage for the desired torque/angular velocity combination.

We also think that flippers shouldn’t just be an all-or-nothing action; with this new technology, the game of pinball could evolve into an even more skilled art form (as long as it actually works well and most people can get the hang of it). Of course, you could still mash the button to get the traditional “instant” effect, but it’s worth a shot to try some granularity in what you can get.

Durability of a servo is greatly enhanced when you stay within its voltage specification :stuck_out_tongue:. Most servos in this price range tend to like just under 5V, but can run as hot as 7.7V with a lifespan degradation of about 20%. Not much is said about staying well under spec though, but I bet it couldn’t hurt.

The interesting part for me (besides advanced gameplay) is the ability to manufacture a flipper with a far simpler system involving fewer parts, and particularly using any standard servo that fits a particular torque curve vs. special double-coil solenoids that need to be custom manufactured (not to mention all the linkages & parts you have to clean). It also reminds me of Robotics class just a bit, finding out exactly how well-matched your servos behind the wheels are and then adjusting either the voltage or PWM duty cycle so their performance matches.

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I’m definitely interested in a servo experiment. Sounds fun. I just don’t know what exists in terms of gameplay between all and nothing. At least in terms of flipper action.

I could imagine some kind of Arkanoid-style flipper/bumper sliding left and right across the bottom at various speeds depending upon button pressure. Or maybe adjusting other playfield toys with it?

nice write up @mrcity,

I’m playing with a similar challenge with a board I working on with @nickdangerous. Converting to new electronic solutions need to be done because you gain something, not just because you can. Making a more durable flipper is needed in the competitive pinball scene. If you watch a PAPA event, you will hear the announcers talk about flippers over heating and weakening for the later competitors. In the finals in Pittsburgh, they completely rebuilt the flippers on a machine between rounds because of the wear.

Good luck, I want to see the proto when you figure it out.

I went in at the $25 pledge level, and so will be getting 3 of the buttons when they ship. Once they arrive, anyone want to help with the hardware to play with them on an existing pin at the space?

From a pinball table refurbishment and play perspective, I’m sure that’s true. But from an experimentation and learning perspective, it might be worth doing even if it doesn’t work well for pinball.

@ESmith your contradicting me by agreeing with me??? :smile: If your experimenting, then you are gaining knowledge. Your gaining something in that example. What I was talking about is the mistake of redoing and rethinking every part of a game not to learn or make it better, but just to do it. This is something I try and keep myself from falling into. If anything, try to start by looking and learning why decision where made before you start rethinking them. I can guarantee the saving in time will be invaluable, plus you will spot the issue that you can better. Example the board nick and I are working on.

The button is a variable analog controller, and thus needs a variable to control. Flippers are all-or-nothing (and need to be - gameplay is lightning fast).

As mentioned… the buttons would ideally be coupled with a variable-effect device/light/moving platform.

One idea: Connect it to a fan controller inside of a vertical plastic tube. Goal: float a ping-pong ball at various heights (target zones) for points.

Change the hardware, change the possibilities.

Flippers have been an all-or-nothing thing because of the hardware used. Coil solenoids have been used since the very start, and have stayed in use because they are simple, robust, and easily maintained/fixed. Playfield layouts and gameplay has been designed to work with the type of physics you get from a standard flipper. To my knowledge (at least as far as I have been able to find) there isn’t any info on how a multi-speed (analog) flipper would affect gameplay. It may totally suck, or it might be the next big thing. Until someone actually tries it we just don’t know. It might be a case where it works, but only for certain types of playfield layouts. I just think it would be a very worthwhile use of time and materials to see just how it does change gameplay. If it doesn’t work out for flipper use, you can simply program a traditional on/off only motion, but still use the analog functions of the button for other elements of gameplay.

  1. Create a real “aimable” launcher, unlike the ones on Terminator 2 or ST:TNG. Instead of an automated back and forth sweep, the amount of pressure on the button would change the aim point of the launcher.

  2. The active Inlane/Outlane could be selected by active pressure on the flipper button instead of simply flipping to the next lane with a button press as is done now on modern games. It could also be used in a bagatelle section (like on the Lawman pin being worked on now) to maximize a bonus if all of the lights are lit when the ball rolls over them. Having to hold a specific pressure instead of tap and release would be more actively involved with the gameplay as the ball moves though a specific area.

3)Variable strength electromagnets to alter playfield ball movement. Targets could be used to build up the “battery level” for the magnets, and activating the magnets drains the battery. Stronger the magnet, faster the power is used.

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I like the “hair trigger” approach for triggering flippers… it reserves analog pressure for other functions without needing another set of buttons on the cab.

Nick Sainz hates pinball games with more than one set of buttons because it disconnects the player from the flow of the game.

I like where your going with this Paul (@Hardsuit) . Especially getting more use out of the two buttons you already have. @nickdangerous is right, I hate having to use extra buttons to do things on a pinball machine. For me the extra buttons take me out of the groove of the game. Also, the extra buttons are often used for some one time feature in a game. This is annoying because most players are not going to be able to get good at that feature, because they don’t get to play the machine much and the chance to use that shot doesn’t happen often in the game play.

Another issue with changing from the norm in pinball is how do you clearly explain your new feature to the player? I don’t know about you, but the current pinball machines have gotten more and more complex, but their explanation of rules and modes have gotten more and more vague. If you find yourself playing a machine with no clue as to what your goal is, this is what I’m talking about.

I’m fully in support of learning and seeing if these new buttons add to pinball. I want new and cool pinball machines!!!

Hey, I’m just stumbling into this conversation like a drunken interloper, but I think you should use a stepper motor as the output device. You can get really high torque if you want a really fast solenoid-like hit, but also you can also vary the position easily if you do something less than smash on the button.

And the simple solution to the inevitable step-loss is to run the stepper beyond the zero-position when you let go of the button.

Another approach would be to current-control the solenoid, which has the effect of reducing force/torque.