An agenda item once the next BoD meeting has been scheduled will likely get a fair hearing.
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If the rules for this to change some things to consider. No ammunition what so ever should be allowed. Members should have to use chamber safety flags at all times. No exceptions. Too many accidents happen because someone thinks a gun is unloaded.
Violations of the rules should be severe. Complacency kills and we have seen it enough in other areas that people forget. Hell, I have forgot to wear a face shield at times. I was too complacent and thankfully someone reminded me.
With firearms you are much more likely to injure someone else with complacency.
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The proposed rules would require guns to be unloaded. Chamber flags are more practical for something like a gun show where the firearms aren’t being disassembled. There would have to be exceptions to the chamber flags or things like basic maintenance wouldn’t be possible.
This is the kind of thinking that breeds complacency. If a gun is out and not dissembled then a chamber flag should be required. As people enter the building and take them out of bags, off their shoulder if slung it should be easily apparent that the weapon is clear and unloaded.
Weapons that are out and not identified as such can lead to confrontations.
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Safety is always a top priority.
Here’s how a past class handled it -
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I’m glad you concur that there would need to be exceptions.
Agree. Hard to see a downside to this safety addendum. Either bring in just the part of the weapon one wants to work on, e.g. the slide, or the grip/lower, or the barrel; or if just cleaning, then the weapon in a general state of disassembly; or if the weapon needs to not be in some state of disassembly then have some obvious, visible lockout in place. There are various solutions…I like these:
And absolutely no ammo anywhere near a weapon being worked on, as in not even in the building or in a range bag sitting nearby…there’s just no need for it.
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This seems reasonable. I will draft a rule for it. An easy solution could be a bucket of 3D printed chamber flags that people can use if they don’t already have some on hand. The part I was objecting to is the “no exceptions” which is simply not practical if things will be disassembled, maintained, cleaned, etc.
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Thoughts on these? Note the new rules covering transportation and empty chamber indicators.
- Work for hire involving firearms is prohibited.
- Work on an item that would result in changing the legal definition of the item under all applicable firearms laws is prohibited.
- Firearms must be unloaded at all times unless they are being carried in accordance with all applicable laws.
- Firearms and firearm components must be handled safely and respectfully at all times.
- Firearms and firearm components must be attended at all times.
- Firearms must be transported in appropriate containers.
- Firearms must have an empty chamber indicator inserted which can be removed only to allow work which would otherwise be obstructed by an empty chamber indicator.
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As much as I like this concept of changing the rules. I can’t support it. I see the following issues as unmitigable.
Insurance
Rules enforcement as it relates to people
Work stoppage
Insurance
A single claim against our insurance related to this matter would likely cause irreparable harm to our insurability. In no way can I ever see the risk versus reward equation here come out in favor of the space. The space has everything to lose and nothing to gain. While I would love to do firearms work I don’t see Dallas Makerspace as that place.
Rules Enforcement
On a good day, we have rules that are disregarded or ignored by members. Generally the community polices itself or escalates to the appropriate authority. Based on more than a few years of observation now, I see this issue as one that is real and would put people in positions where community enforcement is out of the question.
Work Stoppage
Suppose you see someone doing something unsafe with their firearm. You call for a work stoppage and they ignore you. Now what? How do most members how are not experts or uncomfortable with firearms deal with this?
At the end of the day, I fully support the open or concealed carry of firearms in an appropriate sling or holster. I can not support a rule change that opens us up to further risk.
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That’s the case with any significant claim regardless of what it’s in relation to.
That’s why there’s consequences for breaking the rules. If things are too relaxed then it’s not unique to this topic. That’s a much bigger topic that affects the whole space.
The same thing you’d do in any other area. Leave the area and inform the right people. The person hopefully gets banned.
Respectfully gonna disagree with you here.
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would be a good errand to call up the insurance company and see how it would impact insurance before and after an accident / injury
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That’s the biggest one.
As @ESmith pointed out, discussions of firearms quickly devolve into a pack of
(pointing out the un-excellence of that behavior is probably fruitless)
There’s no staff to enforce a rule. When a member brings in loaded firearms at 2 am and another (unarmed) regular member notices, what is the unarmed member with no authority supposed to do? Confront the armed member who’s showing their disdain for the rules? Or be the snitch that gets the armed member disciplined? People who don’t follow the rules won’t follow this one, and it will put other members in a bad spot.
The rule about “changing the legal definition” will be rules-lawyered by members who like to rules-lawyer things.
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This discussion started off pretty well, but I fear it is meandering into the weeds as most politically charged debates do (voting, abortion, free speech, etc…).
Just my two cents, but I think we should allow what the law allows, and let the law exclude what it has prohibited. The State of Texas is on the verge of ratifying Constitutional Carry of firearms.
Now to the policy of DMS: it should conform to the laws of Texas, and the United States. Yes, DMS could post a 30.06 or 30.07 placard on the door, but data and experience show this makes DMS a target, not a safe haven.
Should Makers be able to construct “garage built machine guns” on our equipment? Absolutely not, this is illegal in Texas and the United States. Should there be a “no ammo” rule in the Space? Gunpowder that is not packaged in ammo is a fire hazard, once contained inside a shell casing it is not. Makers who are licensed to carry make the Space safer. Follow the law.
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As I understand it, the BATF was at one point very concerned with “machine shops” that would - for a nominal fee - allow someone to “DIY” their own receiver. Of course, one had to buy the “80%” blank receiver from them, and said shop just happened to have all the tooling and fixtures in place to a degree that the customer more or less just pushed a button at each stage until they had a finished receiver on the other side of the process. Afterwards, ATF ruling were issued that - as I understand it - declared it illegal to create firearms on equipment that one did not own.
Thus, the risk that rules against of working on firearms hope to mitigate is that of the organization being found to be in the business of creating firearms - or the more nebulous task of gunsmithing - without proper licensure, which may be as simple as unwittingly suffering a member milling a receiver. Yes, we clearly do not offer any such services - merely offering access to machine tools - but legal definitions can be tortured things. The question as to whether the existence of such rules will prove sufficient to avoid the potentially-ruinous process of being investigated for a member violating ATF rules, likely long after the fact is very much an open one.
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In theory I have nothing against guns or working on them. Gun smithing is a detail-oriented fiddly process, which “maker” types are drawn to. The few times I’ve done (minor) working on guns, it was enjoyable and rewarding.
Put simply, the risk is too high, in my opinion, to allow anything that could put the entire space at jeopardy. All the other cool tools and work areas could be shut down if ATF or the fire marshal isn’t pleased with firearms work, or someone “forgets” a box of ammo on a storage shelf.
There’s available commercial / light industrial space, and there are plenty of folks who want to work on guns, allegedly some who have quit DMS over the policies. Sounds like an opportunity to start up a communal firearms workshop, so firearms owners can have full ownership of the facility, process, and bureaucracy involved.
Building a fully automatic receiver for an AK-47 is not legal in Texas or the United States, unless one has the proper ATF license. This is an extreme case. It could be argued that issuing a blanket prohibition on ANY firearm making is an extreme position. Making a new stock for one’s shotgun in the Woodshop, and fitting it to the gun onsite, should not be prohibited. Making a bump stock for your AR-15 is now illegal. Follow the law.
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And you’re saying no one has ever committed a crime on the property?
All those times we’ve had to call the police in were just for fun I guess. People also totally don’t behave differently when they think they can get away with something easier than before.
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Leaving a car in Automotive overnight is against the rules. Check the Automotive section of Talk in the past 24 hours.
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