Is this a CV joint on a driveshaft, or on an axle shaft? If it’s an axle shaft, the failure mode for mount bolts is non-catastrophic and won’t cause an accident, so do the McMaster-Carr thing. If it’s a driveshaft (for example on a RWD or 4WD vehicle) then make sure your replacement bolt heads are capable of holding the required clamping force and won’t deform at the torque setting that generates that clamping force.
But while that failure mode is typically catastrophic, it won’t cause your car to veer out and kill somebody, you’ll just lose your ability to accelerate. And probably need a replacement driveshaft.
Bolts is bolts. As long as they are made to the appropriate specification and installed correctly, there’s no need to be afraid of using “the wrong ones” in an automotive application. The only thing to watch out for is mitigating the effects of vibration- don’t want anything to back out. Thread locker is typically sufficient for this.
I’m curious what kind of vehicle we’re talking about, what their current configuration is (i.e. what is the current tool requirement), etc. I find that most DIYers are using the wrong tool, or using it improperly, when I encounter complaints about difficulty in the “CV axle” area (which, for the record, are separate components; the axle is the shaft, the constant velocity joint(s) is(are) the bendy bit(s), but I suppose they ARE usually retained as a unit…).
It’s a driveshaft. I bought 12 point bolts from a manufacturer in Nevada. On that note I’m now the owner of 25 count of 5/16, 24, 1-1/4 if anyone ever needs a set of those bolts.
My question remains, what kind of vehicle/application/current configuration?
From your original description, it sounded like you meant internal 12 point, which would look more like this
If you actually meant the former, we do not have the broaching equipment to make that happen (and although I read about folks turning grade 8 bolts, I have no experience, and if Walter says don’t do it, the machine shop chair is likely to take that stance as well…).
I currently have home Depot grade 8 bolts. Everytime I pull the driveshaft its a pain the ass. So I just went and bought outer 12 point bolts. I was just trying to figure out if there was an easy way to convert regular hex bolts to internal hex bit bolts.
To not derail this thread overmuch, I’ll keep it short hah. FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) is an evil sales tactic, notably used by Microsoft. The reason it’s notorious is because as Microsoft practiced it, there was no real truth behind it - the evils of open source were anything but what they said.
There’s no FUD when it comes to making unsafe repairs or modifications to things that keep your car from crashing. “I’ll make my own driveshaft bolts” is fine if you know what you’re doing, but when someone is asking these sorts of questions, they don’t.
If someone isn’t aware of how things can go wrong, it’s better to explain what could go wrong than to stay silent. Especially when there’s a reasonable potential for getting themselves killed or others on the road. If there was none, sure, it’d be akin to chicken little, but if your driveshaft bolts strip out while going down the road at speed, and one end drops while the other stays in place? It’s not unreasonable to say it could be a very bad day for both the driver and others on the road.
To date, I have had one complete loss of steering event caused by work done at a top rated professional shop, when they failed to torque and cotter pin the taper joint between the pitman arm and the power steering sense valve, and if fell apart giving a total loss of steering while on the public roadway.
I have another professional shop case where tie rod adjustment clamps were installed not in the manufacturer recommended orientation leading to damage to the power steering valve, that could have lead to loss of power assist, and fluid spilled on the roadway, neither of which are great for public safety. It did do a fair bit of damage before I identified what they did wrong.
My father had a shop fail to tighten the oil drain plug on a car such that it fell out about 400 miles down the road.
I’m sorry, but the professional shops aren’t setting a very high bar to beat in terms of public safety, if you have even a basic understanding of your limits.
Good to know, but they were expecting and planning for failure. People get killed because they’re distracted and spill their coffee or look down for a second to change the radio station. It doesn’t take much. And sure, a tie rod, or an axle or even loose lug nuts might make for a worse day. But it takes very little to cause an accident, it doesn’t hurt to do things the right way when one potential side effect is getting killed. Stick with the original OEM bolts? Worst comes to worse, it’s a pain in the rear to get them on and off. Or make your own and worse comes to worse, get in a wreck because they fail unexpectedly?
Everyone has their own measure for what they consider acceptable risk.
Sure, crappy work by crappy mechanics is possible. And good work by non-mechanics is possible, if you know what you’re doing.
If you’re asking about machining a hex socket into bolts that were never designed for that… It’s a reasonable sign that someone doesn’t know what they’re doing.
I am not saying “Don’t make something”, I’m saying “If you’re working on something that can get you or others killed, you need to know what you’re doing before you make something. If you have to ask this question, you don’t know what you’re doing. Please listen to those around you before proceeding, there may be another way to achieve your goals without risking life and limb”
I’d say the Makerspace, new though I may be to it, believes the same - a lot of the machines in the machine shop have required safety training, because you can main yourself with a lathe if you don’t know what you’re doing. A car is capable of the same, and due caution should be exercised in the same manner.
That why tools like lathes, wood and metal, having training required. The training is primarily to get you so you can operate the tools in safe manner and without damaging them and learn our usage policies. Then it’s up to you to practice and develop your skills from online/book learning, watching others, getting mentoring etc. There are occasional classes for things like turning pens or bowls.
A lot of people want advanced classes, here’s the problem: there really is a small cadre of instructors that teach. We tend to focus on the basic “training required class” because that gets more people using the tools. Teaching a Basics class doesn’t require a high degree expertise, if we had more volunteers for that, then many of the current instructors that are skilled could teach more intermediate classes.
Do you have any ideas on how to get more instructors to teach, beyond the common “More Money”. We are a community of volunteers, money should be the prime motivator. It isn’t for me, I’m even barred form collecting an honorarium but still typically teach 4-6 classes a month.
@Photomancer - From what I’ve seen, the lack of instructors has a few different causes.
One, people who know enough to teach often have a shop where they work and have access to the tools that the Makerspace offers, so have no need to join the Makerspace.
Two, there’s not a lot of outreach (from what I’ve seen, I may be wrong, feel free to correct me if I am!) to those that are in a position to teach - recruiting retired machinists and the like. Maybe reach out to DFW area machinist companies and get referrals for people they know of and would recommend as being able and willing to teach, then contact those people and see if they’re willing?
Three, there’s not a lot of incentive to teach. If you don’t need access to the tools, as a lot of younger people (like myself!), have a shop you can use or a shop of your own, or are retired and have no desire to bother with machining, there’s no draw. There’s no money in it, there’s no prestige, and little to no thanks (from what I’ve seen, correct me if I’m wrong), as well as being time consuming and frustrating (by the sound of it).
My local university faces the same issues with recruiting professors - they don’t have the money to pay enough to keep a potential new professor from hiring on at another institution, so they often frame the argument in a different light - ‘don’t do it for the money, but rather because this place is something special, and you’ll build it into something incredible’. Or in my case, because it looks nice on the resume and they appealed to my sense of charity - ‘you gained a lot from a education in CS that led to a rewarding career in IT, wouldn’t it be awesome to give back a little to those that are on the same path?’
In some ways, it’s just a numbers game. There’s so very few that can teach, you just need to reach a lot more of them.
Virtually everything made and/or tool used to make we have can get you or others killed or severely injured at the space. I believe that is the point I believe Zach was trying to make.
Frankly, even if you purchase a grade ‘8’ bolt instead of making or modifying one, you could well end up with a Chinese (or other third world product) that doesn’t meet grade and could end up killing or injurying yourself or others. Risk is a part of life, and nothing WE can do actually reduces that risk…
Sure you can’t fix stupid, but we were all ignorant at some point, I’d hope we’re a decent enough of a group to try and help others when the cause is just ignorance. Anyway, no need to derail this further, I’ve said what I could.
I think there may be a great difference between the expectations of those that volunteer and teach verses those that if they don’t see enough personal Incentives (usually $$) to bother to compete to contribute. This comes down to the basic view of: Do you view Dallas Makerspace as a cooperative learning community or a place you pay to use tools? One is an investment of yourself vs just cash.
There is outreach. You may not have seen it personally, but it also shows up in Talk Threads. Chairs especially ask people to teach, do or have you ever attended any committee meetings? It is almost always brought up at these. This is where an individuals voice is most effective. If you don’t take part in these, you are giving that decision making power to those that do. If you can’t attend, give a proxy.
Reading your post and others, see next item, Incentive = $$$. I’d say I and most the other instructors teach not for the dollars, because a fair percentage don’t take honorariums and let it all go toe the committee. We do it primarily because we see the Makerspace as a fantastic place and community, we want give back to make it a greater community, a sense of volunteerism, sharing our passions for a particular area, and some of us enjoy teaching and sharing knowledge.
If members view belonging to DMS is nothing more than “I pay my dues what do I get!” and don’t have a sense of community or volunteerism but will do something if the pay is right - then I don’t have an answer, it comes down to: do you look at us as a cooperative community or a service that’s paid for. I will tell you that DMS would collapse immediately without the volunteers. There is a great pride among those of that contribute to making DMS successful and that we don’t have any employees. All of the volunteer efforts that allow us the have the great facilities and tools is mainly achievable because all that would be spent on employees goes into the space not out the door as payroll.
If you and others don’t feel like contributing/volunteering to the community in someway, doesn’t have to be teaching, beyond you membership dues unless your $$Incentivized$$, then we will really become a Tech shop where you pay for everything. Which results in everybody complaining about the fees.
Can’t speak to prestige, except that it is personally shown by the number that come and ask instructions for help on the area I teach and associated areas. Or just where is something. Is it a public “Prestige” type thing, no, but I think most instructors and volunteers find that personally very gratifying.
If incentive is $$, you are right. The Honorarium is meant as a “thank you” for spending the time, effort and cost (fuel, tolls, etc.) for contributing to our educational mission. It was never intended as a supplementary income stream.
Actually, this describes what the Dallas Makerspace aspires to and to a large extent is achieving. It is incredible what we’ve achieved. Kudos to all those that have helped make it this way.
Nothing wrong with either of those! I’d submit if you are putting on your resume there is some of the prestige being you get.
Disagree with this totally. You do not have to be an expert to teach, especially Basics Classes. We’ll teach you how if you’ll invest a very minimal amount of time.
There are not too few that CAN teach, there are too few WILLING to teach. If you are already a capable wood worker to become an instructor is really three steps, true for other committees also. Take the Basic Class, notify chair you want teach and shadow a class, then teach a class (you’ll get paid for this) while being observed. That’s it, you’re now an approved instructor.
If you haven’t gather it yet, I’m a rabid evangelical for the Dallas Makerspace Community.
I would we have very different expectations or conceptions of what the Makerspace is or should be. That’s okay. But we aren’t a Tech Shop.
