Covid-19 Vaccine Trial, Unblinding Pfizer Subjects

As reported, I entered the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine trial on Sept 1st, when they administered the 1st dose (substance unknown). Sept 22nd they called me in for the 2nd dose.

Sometime in December, I decided to get antibody tested, the suspense was killing me. I had some repeated minor reactions after injections; slight very short time dizziness, slight elevated temperature, expected injection site pain. But, the Antibody Test from Core Labs came back with a 0.0, negative.

Monday, Ventavia Research called me in response to my request to be unblinded in the Pfizer Study. They told me not to get vaccinated again, they had given me both doses of BNT162B2 in September.

Dennis, you made your own Covid-19 Test, Adair and Kobin, you have a lot of data and knowledge in this subject. Is this a P protein/S protein thing?

If I got the Vax, why did the Antibody Test come back negative?

@dennis_o @kobin @FairieCyanide

If I remember correctly the antibodies they test for only stay in your system for about 20 days post infection (or vaccination). So if you got vaccinated on Sep 22, by Dec the antibodies would no longer be detectible.

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The future response is handled by the T-cells after the initial antibodies fade, correct ?

Probably because you got the wrong antibody test.

The widely-available antibody tests test for antibodies to the virus’s nucleocapsid proteins, while the vaccine stimulates the production of spike proteins. So to determine whether you got vaccinated, you need a spike protein antibody test.

One such test is the Roche “Elecsys Anti-SARS-CoV-2 S” test, available through LabCorp as test number 164090. Any doctor can order it for you. It costs about $42 (!) if paying for it yourself.

Note that there is another similarly named Roche Elecsys test that does not have that ‘S’ at the end of the name. That test is a nucleocapsid antibody test and will not be useful to determine vaccination status.

https://www.labcorp.com/tests/164090/sars-cov-2-semi-quantitative-total-antibody-spike

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I bet you probably know more about this than most of the lab technicians that are actually doing this stuff :–)

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Thanks for the info! That’s about what I figured. Dennis told us that per populations, the envelope proteins § vastly outnumber the spike proteins (S). so most Covid infection tests key on the larger numbered proteins.

Is it an assumption that in a natural disease process, that the defense system keys on the same higher number P-proteins, and therefore generates mostly antibodies to neutralize those?

If so, the natural disease process should confer far better immunity than an mRNA vaccine, which keys on those ever mutating spike proteins.

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No. On antibodies to nucleocapsid proteins.

Antibody defense must happen before a virus infects a cell. Antibodies are extracellular defense agents. While a virus is floating around in your body, only the spike proteins are “visible” to your immune system. The nucleocapsid proteins are inside the virus and are essentially hidden, so antibodies to them won’t prevent infection. Once the virus is inside a cell antibodies are useless.

For clarification, SARS-CoV-2 has an envelope that is a typical phospholipid bilayer. It doesn’t generate an immune response in itself. The virus doesn’t have a protein capsid but it does have a nucleocapsid inside the envelope.

You need antibodies to the spike protein to prevent infection. That’s why the vaccines target those proteins and is why the vaccine elicits a stronger immune response than infection does. It just makes a shit-ton of spike protein.

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If I am following you correctly then, an mRNA or virus conveyed spike protein vaccine should provide a far better immunity than the immunity generated by resolving the disease naturally? Is this the sticky bit which allows for the problem that “long haulers” experience with this virus?

It’s fascinating to me the numbers they are posting for effectiveness of these vaccines, the mRNA drugs are off the charts, the chimp virus is very good, but the Adenovirus is trailing badly:
BioNTech/Pfizer (mRNA) 95%
Moderna (mRNA) 94.5%
Astra Zeneca (chimp virus) 90%
Johnson&Johnson (Adenovirus) 72%

Yeah the spike protein is the ideal target because it’s completely visible to your immune system and an antibody attaching to it disables it for the virus’ use.

I dunno about long-haulers.

Moderna’s technology is easy to understand but fascinating. It’s like a Swiss Army knife of vaccine technology. Punch in a protein you want and bam! You have a piece of mRNA that codes for it.

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Last year, In my household both my wife and daughter tested positive, my wife suffering the longest of the two. My son and I both had tests at those times as well, and always tested negative. We haven’t been very protective of each other at all, or extra cleanly. I slept in the same bed as my wife all but 2 days.

I am not denier, this virus has killed so many. Would having samples from us help anything? Just curious because our situation seems so strange.